The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The gates of new Jerusalem

In UR, there are two arguments about the gates of the new Jerusalem.

The first one is about Rev.22:14. It says that because this passage emphasizes that the first believers enter the city
by the gates, there must be also another route to the city, and that route will be used by those who come to the city
from the Lake of Fire.

The second one is about Rev.21:25. It says that because the gates of Jerusalem are always open, the guys from the Lake
of Fire can freely come to the city.

But imagine these two together. Why emphasize the openness of the gates, when we know from Rev.22:14 that the guys from the
Lake of Fire are not going to enter the city through the gates, but by some other route?

Welcome to the forum, zipzap!

I think most of us, myself included, regard 22:14 to be about those outside the city who have not yet washed their robes and slaked their thirst in the river of life which flows out of the never-closed gates of the city – i.e., the dogs and sorcerers and those who are still fondling their sins in the next book, whom the Spirit and the Bride are exhorting to repent and come into the city (still being righteous and so still doing what the righteous do, which is to instruct and purge clean the unrighteous per Daniel 12 which was being referenced a couple of verses earlier).

So we don’t think those in the Lake of Fire enter the NJ (whatever the NJ may literally and/or figuratively be) except through the gates, just like the previously slain kings of the earth bringing their people penitently into the city through the gates, following the light of Christ, back at the end of chapter 21.

Frankly, I’ve never even heard of an argument that there must be another route “into the City” instead of following the river of life / light of Christ (both of which are the evangelical saving action of Christ pictured in slightly different ways) through the gates.

(Edited to add: full preterists might not agree with that, but the whole argument about entering through gates or by some other way would be a categorical error and so pointless so them.)

Vv. 12-13 of Ch. 21 say that each of this cubic city’s 4 sides is oriented towards 1 of the cardinal compass points, with 3 gates on each side of the surrounding wall (so that it has 12 gates in all). That’s a picture, to me, of a very (literally) open community, if these gates are never closed, since, regardless of the direction of one’s approach towards the city, one will always find an open portal. These compass points are a bit more poetic in Greek (as well as in Hebrew and Aramaic, one or both which some believe to be the original language[s] of this book); they are Anatolē, the origin-point of the rising sun (East); Borrhas, the direction of Boreas, the North Wind; Notos, which is also the name of the South Wind; and Dysmē, the region of sunset (West).

V. 21 says that each gate is a single (solid? gigantic? spherical?) pearl. Assuming that the tribute being brought into the city in vv. 25-26 requires big, wide portals even close to the size of the gates of the current Jerusalem, then those are indeed some gigantic pearls in view here. If they’re even one third of the height of the New City’s wall (at 144 “forearms” tall) then each pearl we’d have, if it’s round(ish), would be 72 ft (more than 20m) in diameter. To occur naturally, if I’ve got my pearl-science right, it would take something like at least 11,000 years to grow in fairly optimum conditions. And maybe that’s part of the point: that the city’s construction has long been under way(?).

The only way I can imagine a pearl being a perpetually open gatehouse is in a sort of sci-fi/fantasy sense whereby to enter the city one “switches” the pearl “on” to be “beamed” through it, except that these pearls are always set to “on.” An even more sci-fi rendition would be if they were more regular-sized pearls fixed like elevator buttons into the city wall so that essentially the gates are hidden. One needs to find the pearl on the wall and push this gem-button in order to be beamed through the jasper (the material used for the wall). At any rate v. 12 implies that these gates might be the people of Israel (perhaps every single Israelite since the first twelve sons), and the messenger (“angel”) stationed at each gate implying the delivery of some kind of communiqué, perhaps between those currently outside and those already within; maybe the invitation extended by the Breath and the Bride in v. 17 of the next chapter, as mentioned by Jason. A messenger stationed in the gatehouse of most any ancient city would’ve connoted a watchman, responsible for the city’s defence by regulating the traffic in and out of the city based on who might be friend or foe, and by keeping a lookout for attacks that may come from any quarter, especially by night. But in the case of a city whose several gatehouses are always open and in which it is perpetual daytime, perhaps these messengers are the Lamb’s heralds, announcing the approach of tribute coming through the gates or the presence of the thirsty dead ones outside needing to come in to drink the Life-Water.

An especially peculiar feature of this cube is that it comes from the sky towards the land but is never explicitly described as actually touching down anywhere, not unless we combine its descriptions with the prophet Isaiah’s New Creation visions (which seem to include a new Jerusalem) towards the end of his scroll, or if we assume that John’s New Jerusalem is the same as Ezekiel’s Temple, likewise from the end of this prophet’s scroll. But assuming the city remains perpetually levitating between Heaven and Earth, as appears to be the case by the end of John’s visions, then the only other way in, if not through the ample number of supplied gateways, would be through the solid duodecuple [12-fold] foundation (Rev. 21:14, 19-20), which seems unlikely. And if not that then it would have to be over the wall, from the air above, implying the ability to fly or some similar means of transportation, from the land below to the wall and then over. And this too is problematic since the city seems to be a covered(?) golden box, in addition to all the other considerations (Rev. 21:16-18).

(None of which is to say that this is particularly representative of what anyone else on here might think, whatever their persuasion about the meaning of all this.)

So we don’t think those in the Lake of Fire enter the NJ (whatever the NJ may literally and/or figuratively be

So heaven is actually New Jersey! You know I always suspected that but its’ good to have it confirmed! :wink:

You hav to make a U turn to get anywhere in NJ. :wink:

The measurements of the NJ might be the measurements of a pyramid, not a cube. Jesus being both the cornerstone and the capstone.

Be lifted up ye gates, and be lifted up ye everlasting doors, that the King of glory may come in.

That’s a crazy kool image which I wish I’d thought of :exclamation: (assuming we’re talking about the New Creation again, rather than the Western Hemisphere’s “New World” :open_mouth: ). There’s other reasons to see Ancient Egyptian imagery in the Apocalypse too, but now your quote of Psalm 24 reminds of the preceding hymn to that, in which YHWH’s rod and staff comfort/protect His sheep. Pharaoh, meaning “Great House,” originally referred to the palace of the king of Egypt. By the time of Israel’s first immigration into Egypt the empire was already at least a thousand years old and the meaning had shifted to the vision of the king embodying the nation, represented by the “house,” within himself. He carried in one hand a flail (similar to the fly-whisk recently wielded by other African heads of state) and in the other hand a shepherd’s crook or staff, the latter indicating the monarch as the benevolent [good] shepherd of his people.

Christ is the Great House of the Above One,
The Tent inside which Mosheh and Aharon meet YHWH,
The Temple inside which Yisra’el is married to God,
And the Body through which Adam and his Maker are united in the flesh.
We, being living stones raised from death, are part of the House,
Yehoshua {Jesus} being the foundation-stone of the building as well as its entirety,
Eventually engulfing the whole universe (we, the enlivened stones included)
Like in the dream of Nabu-kudurri-uṣur {Nebuchadnezzar}.

Beyond being the new Caesar, Christ is also the true Lord of the Two Lands [of the Nile] “because the YHWH of Armies has blessed it, saying, ‘Blessed is My people Egypt’” (Isaiah 19:25).

There are those who envision the KI [Kainēs Ierousalēm] :stuck_out_tongue: as a cube because they see it as a reference to the Holy of Holies, which, like other such sancta in the Middle and Near East, was cubical. Could it be both cubical and pyramidal, though? Does a 5-cell (4D pyramid) ever take on the shape of a cube, from any angle?

If the KI is actually a vast group of people existing across time and space then maybe, even though it’s a solid piece of architecture, it morphs or… {dare I say it?} transforms?

:mrgreen:

Definitely on board with that!

And I love the whole idea of the “pearls” as something like the Stargate- a wormhole pass through time and dimension :wink: and even the whole House/Body/Tent/temple/City as a time transcendent entity/apparatus gathering souls into the “all in all”.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Heb 12

I see the Great House in Hebrews 12 “coming down out of heaven” as it is built into a gatehouse for souls “through out all the generations of the age of the ages”

I see the blueprint in Ephesians

having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that** in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,** both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12** that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory****. Eph 1

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10** For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.** Eph 2

For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
**
20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. Eph 3
eis tou genea tou aionos tou aionon “into all generations of the age of the ages”**

I believe the “age of the ages” is when time is complete and death is undone and God is “all in all”. The Hebrews 12 Great House is being assembled in the heavenlies, as a habitation of God in the Spirit, outside(or above) time. It is also the “one new man”. Its feet are on earth, it is clothed in the clouds, its head is in heaven, in its hand the eternal gospel.(Rev 10).

“all generations of the age of the ages” being the full harvest into the “all in all”.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. James 1

For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor 4

1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God,** a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens 2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, **…
7 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5

For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor 4

In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.Heb 2

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8

That glorious freedom of prefect love is swallowing up death, setting the creation free from chaos, futility, sin and death.

In the dimension beyond this mortal veil (olam) eternal realities (time transcendent things, eternal things, things that have passed out of time or existed before time and continue outside of time) stand as foundations, When time is complete(an administration suitable to the fulness-pleroma/completion of time) all the temporal things will dissolve (2 Peter 3). it is fitting that Hebrews 12 concludes with “yet once more will the heavens and the earth be shaken until only that which cannot be shaken remains” and “Our God is a consuming fire”.

I think the Day of the Lord is a transient intersection(entered at death) between all the lives ever lived and their “each in his own order” entrance into the “all in all”. For some it will be an awakening into joy and aionian work. For some it will be an awakening into aionian kolassis, a conscience in the crucible in the presence of the Lord until "every knee bows’, until the last enemy is reconciled/converted/transformed, and death is abolished.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed(lythesetai-dissolved) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up(heurethēsetai exposed).Since all these things are to be destroyed(lyomenon-being dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed(dissolved) by burning, and the elements(stoichion-elementary principles- temporal foundations) will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.**