The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Gates Will Never Be Shut/You Will Never Have Forgiveness

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” ~~Mark 2:29

and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. ~~ Rev. 21:25

Universalists claim that never doesn’t mean never when it’s referring to the eternal sin but it does mean never when it says the gates will never be shut. This is inconsistent. If the gates are shut they would be shut for protection against evil. But there is no evil in the new heavens and earth hence, there’s no need to shut the gates of the city. The gates of the city are open to those in the new heavens and earth. Open to all the nations. Not to those in the lake of fire. The gates will never be closed because theirs nothing unclean in the new heavens and earth. There’s no point in closing them. In the Bible they were closed at night to protect against intruders. But in the new heavens and earth there is no darkness. The glory of God outshines the light of the sun moon and starts so that the light from the heavenly bodies aren’t needed. Not that the sun moon and stars no longer exists only that the light from the city shines brighter.

#2

First, there is no Mark 2:29. The first verse you quoted is Mark 3:29.
Secondly, “aiōnios” doesn’t mean “eternal”; it means “lasting.” The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring.

The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. That stone is certainly not eternal.

Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “aiōnios” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.

But the clincher comes from the Homily of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Ephesians, written by Chrysostom. He wrote that the kingdom of Satan “is “aiōnios” (agey), in other words it will cease with the present “aiōn” (age).” So Chrysostum apparently believed that “aiōnios” meant exactly the opposite to “eternal”! ---- that is “lasting” but in this case also “temporary.”

Thirdly, the word “never” does not exist in Mark 3:29. Translators have rendered four Greek words as “never.” What the verse literally says is, “…but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness to the age.”

I gather from that that he WILL have forgiveness at some point during the (next) age.

#3

That may be true but then the same words are used to say the gates of the city will never be shut. We must conclude that it’s possible that they will be shut in a future age. The word literally means:

The gates will not be shut.

King James 2000 Bible
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

American King James Version
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

American Standard Version
And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the gates thereof shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there.

Darby Bible Translation
And its gates shall not be shut at all by day, for night shall not be there.

English Revised Version
And the gates thereof shall in no wise be shut by day (for there shall be no night there):

Webster’s Bible Translation
And the gates of it shall not be shut by day: for there shall be no night there.

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. ~~ Mathew 12:42

#4

Rev.21:25 uses the double negative - ou me - which many translations render as “never”:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/21-25.htm
http://biblehub.com/revelation/21-25.htm

“ou and me; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all – any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare me ouk.” http://biblehub.com/greek/3364.htm

The double negative doesn’t occur in any of the 3 BHS synoptic accounts.

#5

Thanks Orgin! I didn’t know that.

1 Like
#6

It seems that outside the gates of the city (New Jerusalem) are the wicked:

Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Does the Bible say so?

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

“In the Book of Revelation, the phrase “kings of the earth” appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the “kings of the earth” will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where “nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem.”

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

]https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

#7

Thanks again.

#8

I now go along with this:

Jesus called the destruction of Jerusalem the “the days of vengeance” (Luke 21:22). The destruction of Jerusalem was an act of God’s vengeance and judgment, not Rome’s; these would be the days when people were punished for their sins. The destruction of the holy city was not an accidental or arbitrary act, but the just recompense of reward for those who rejected God’s Son.

The days of retribution happened in 70 AD. Gehenna is not the same thing as the lake of fire. The lake of fire and brimstone is a purifying fire. The image is one of a lake and hence a baptism. The word brimstone means Divine incense because it was used in purification. Fire (pur) is where we get the word purify from. When you are baptized you die to self. This fits with the lasting correction. Correction, disciplinary, medicinal punishment describes the lake of fire not retribution. It’s also the punishment Christ went through as it tells us in Isaiah 53. It was medicinal for our well being and Christ learned obedience through what He suffered. What faces us in the infant heavens and earth when we die is either lasting life or lasting correction.

1 Like
#9

I translate that double negative as “no way.”

#10

If you have a study on how you reached this conclusion i’d be interested in seeing it.

I wonder how many times - ou me - occurs in the NT & where a list of such can be found.

#11

This double negative occurs 85 times in the New Testament. It’s late at night right now, and I’m sleepy. But hopefully, in the near future, I’ll be able to share around 10 of these with you, and give you the references for the others.

#12

NT <οὐ μὴ> ou mē

Mt 5:18; 5:20; 10:23; 13:14 (x2); 15:6; 16:28; 25:9; 26:29

Mk 13:2; 14:25

Lk 6:37 (x2); 10:19

Jn 4:14; 13:8

Heb 8:12

1Pet 2:6

2Pet 1:10

#13

Origin, I’ve been thinking:

It seems that outside the gates of the city (New Jerusalem) are the wicked:

Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Yes but the new heavens and earth encompasses more than just the new city. The new heavens and earth is the new creation. It’s all nations and their kings. It’s ALL MANKIND. The lake of fire isn’t part of ALL MANKIND.

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind- Isaiah 66

Notice that those included in the lake of fire aren’t part of “ALL MANKIND”. Let’s look at the parallel passage in Revelations

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all things new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Notice that those in the lake of fire aren’t part of the new heavens and earth. All things are made new and then when it comes to the lake of fire it say “BUT” separating the lake of fire from all things made new.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Under the earth is speaking in the context of the new heavens and earth not the lake fire. It’s a reference to purgatory. It’s referring to those saints that are resurrected from under the earth not the wicked. All nations and kings will enter the gates of the city. This is referring to the nations in the new heavens and earth. The city is in a localized area of the new heavens and earth.

#14

Here is the complete list of the 85 occurances of “ου μη” (ou mā) in the English Standard Version of the New Testament:

Mt 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Mt 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 5:26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
Mt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Mt 10:42 And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward."
Mt 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “’“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
Mt 15:5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,”
Mt 16:22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.”
Mt 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Mt 18:3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Mt 24:2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Mt 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
Mt 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
Mt 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’
Mt 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."
Mt 26:35 Peter said to him, “Even if I must die with you, I will not deny you!” And all the disciples said the same.
Mr 9:1 ¶ And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
Mr 9:41 ¶ For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.
Mr 10:15 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
Mr 13:2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
Mr 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be.
Mr 13:30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Mr 14:25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
Mr 14:31 But he said emphatically, “If I must die with you, I will not deny you.” And they all said the same.
Mr 16:18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Lu 1:15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
Lu 6:37 ¶ “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
Lu 8:17 For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
Lu 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”
Lu 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.
Lu 12:59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny."
Lu 13:35 Behold, your house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’"
Lu 18:7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
Lu 18:17 Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."
Lu 21:18 But not a hair of your head will perish.
Lu 21:32 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.
Lu 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
Lu 22:16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
Lu 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
Lu 22:67 “If you are the Christ, tell us.” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe,
Lu 22:68 and if I ask you, you will not answer.
Joh 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
Joh 4:48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 8:12 ¶ Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Joh 8:51 ¶ Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”
Joh 8:52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’
Joh 10:5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
Joh 11:56 They were looking for Jesus and saying to one another as they stood in the temple, “What do you think? That he will not come to the feast at all?”
Joh 13:8 Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.”
Joh 13:38 Jesus answered, “Will you lay down your life for me? Truly, truly, I say to you, the rooster will not crow till you have denied me three times.
Joh 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Joh 18:11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”
Joh 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
Ac 13:41 “’Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’”
Ac 28:26 “’Go to this people, and say, “You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
Ro 4:8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
1Co 8:13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
Ga 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 5:3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”
Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Heb 13:5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
1Pe 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
Re 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’
Re 3:3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.
Re 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
Re 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
Re 9:6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.
Re 15:4 Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
Re 18:7 As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, ‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.’
Re 18:14 “The fruit for which your soul longed has gone from you, and all your delicacies and your splendors are lost to you, never to be found again!”
Re 18:21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more;
Re 18:22 and the sound of harpists and musicians, of flute players and trumpeters, will be heard in you no more, and a craftsman of any craft will be found in you no more, and the sound of the mill will be heard in you no more,
Re 18:23 and the light of a lamp will shine in you no more, and the voice of bridegroom and bride will be heard in you no more, for your merchants were the great ones of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.
Re 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day — and there will be no night there.
Re 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

1 Like
#15

As I indicated above, the ESV has the following translation of Mt 10:42

And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward."

In this verse, the ESV translators render “ου μη” as "by no means."However, instead of “he will by no means lose his reward” I would translate it as “he will no way lose his reward.” I would NEVER translate “ου μη” as “never”!

#16

As i see it, this passage isn’t speaking of a new universe, but a city & its gates, with the wicked outside of them:

Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

It’s gates will never be closed:

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

“In the Book of Revelation, the phrase “kings of the earth” appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the “kings of the earth” will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where “nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem.”

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

If God meant only some/most of mankind, why would He say “all mankind”?

Isa.66:23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
Isa.66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the “corpses” referred to:

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:

(3) I wonder how “corpses” (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could “corpses” survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.

(4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?

“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)

Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory

25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

(5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still “corpses” of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28)?

“Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.”

(6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:

"It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis’ mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, “The Consuming Fire.” The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God’s eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins."http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.ca/2011/08/origen-on-salvation-of-devil.html

(7) In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life “in Christ” & God will be “all in all” (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.

I don’t see that stated or implied.

IMO the separating is regarding the last statement, i.e. the verse (Rev.21:7), before it saying “The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.”

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

As i’m seeing it, this is a vision that the apostle John received from the Lord Jesus Christ. And in the first part of the verse (Rev.5:13a) the reference is to the entire old heavens & earth, not the new universe. For there is no sea in the new heavens & earth (Rev.21:1).

Then, in the second half of the verse John envisions everyone in the old universe worshipping the Saviour of the kosmos, the Lamb of God Who takes away its sin (cf. John 1:29; 4:42).

This universal salvation vision cannot have its actual fulfillment in the old universe, so it will have to be fulfilled in the new universe, when God will be “making all new” (Rev.21:5).

#17

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

the reference is to the entire old heavens & earth, not the new universe. For there is no sea in the new heavens & earth (Rev.21:1).

I just found this. In apocalyptic and poetic texts like the one in Revelation, the sea represents chaos and the habitation of all things dreadful and demonic. It’s the abode of death and evil. Under the earth could be the lake of fire. I guess it’s saying all creatures will confess and glorify God.

1 Like