No, I can’t. I’m the aspiring Holy Fool, who responds like this guy. (AKA Heavy Set German).
Your mission is to apparently teach universalism. I’m not here, to stop or sabotage your mission. Or anyone else who is here, to accomplish a similar mission. My mission is to be, the best Holy Fool; I can. Perhaps we can share - a virtual tea ceremony - from time to time?
Different mssions. Different priorities.
I beg your pardon, sir. Please continue with your mission.
Dear brother Zombie: I have one mission and one mission ONLY, to follow the Lamb in the withersoever. He is my mission and what He cherishes.
The question is straightforward. Whose will prevails, the Lord of the universe or His little created creatures, with their wee wills?
I have no clue. Tonight is an important episode, of The Walking Dead. And Negan - my favorite antihero - has joined the Whispers. And the Whispers, walk among the Hollywood zombies. So I’m too preoccupied, to “think clearly”.
And before then, they have some superhero TV shows - on the CW channel.
And this coming week, we have more Trump impeachment inquiry “dialogue”. And I might be called upon, to provide “comic relief” - as an aspiring Holy Fool.
So I won’t be able to “think clearly”…as I just took my Holy Fool and Zombie tonic mixture.
Over and out - for now. For perhaps a while.
Please continue with your mission, kind sir!
It’s like the old, country song.
“You gotta know when to hold them. Know when to fold them. Know when to walk away, know when to run”.
:
The Ghastly Dogma of Everlasting Torment=
A bit must be said here, about spiritual respect. When I visit Zen masters, Tibetan Lamas, Indian Yogis Native American medicine people, Sukyo Mahikari and Johrei practitioners, I learn to respect their ways. Same goes for a program or event, at the Theosophical Society. I come to learn from them. And take back what I learned and incorporate it, into my Christian faith and daily life.
And none of these activities, should concern EO, EC or RC priests and bishops (or Protestant ministers, for that matter). As they don’t violate the ten commandments or man made laws, as I see it.
When I’m with them, I’m on their home turf. So I don’t debate them. I might share my Christian perspective if asked.
It’s called Spiritual Respect.
Spiritual respect is a God-given right held by all living things that should be honored, esteemed and regarded by everyone at all times. It is not demanding. It does not encompass judgment from human mores and values. It is the awareness of seeing beyond human limitations and conditions to the positive life force in every living thing.
Similarly, when I’m on this forum…Well, I don’t debate dogmatic universalists. I might share some of my perspective and reflections - as I did here. But I will stop short of embracing, anything not supported by RC, EO and EC church teachings. Or visions of mainline Christian mystics. Having said that, I don’t embrace ECT. And I do embrace Christian inclusivism and Hopeful universalism.
As far as other forum positions go. Well,
If folks are on a forum thread, singing:
“Donald Trump, Superstar…”
I might look for the nearest phone booth or Portable toilet and yell:
This looks like a job, for Super Holy Fool
Dear Zombie: Before you head anywhere again, it would be advised to visit your nearest closet and speak to the Lord of us all. Better yet, keep your wee mouth closed and hear what He is saying.
The Aleph & Tav
"And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubim, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone/ tarshish stone.
And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.
When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went.
And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had.
As for the wheels, it was cried unto them in my hearing.
And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
And the cherubim were lifted up. This is the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.
And when the cherubim went, the wheels went by them: and when the cherubim lifted up their wings to mount up from the earth, the same wheels also turned not from beside them."
Antiphonal Worship
I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another:
‘Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.’
At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke
‘Woe to me!’ I cried. ‘I am ruined’! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.’ Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, ‘See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away.’
I did that for 6 years or so…as an attendee, of a silent Quaker meeting.
Dear Zombie: There is a long list of remarkable Quakers. Perhaps you should have been an “attendee” a mite longer. However, there is a time when being an attendee must escalate to a one on One. It is there in the secret place of the most High God you end and a new Avenue begins.
“The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance.” -A.W. Tozer
“Eternal Punishment” is the term used in the English translation of the Bible on which most people base their view of eternal conscious torment in Hell. The term in the Greek is “kolasis aionios.” If this term does indeed mean eternal punishment, then hell would seem to be foreverrrrrrrrrr.
But, such is not the case. Let’s first consider the opinion of the great Greek scholar William Barclay, who was professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at Glasgow University and the author of many commentaries and books, including a translation of the New Testament and the very popular Daily Study Bible Series. Barclay discusses this point regarding Matthew 25:46 in his well-known autobiography:
“One of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is ‘kolasis,’ which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature ‘kolasis’ is never used of anything but ‘remedial punishment.’ The word for ‘eternal’ is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to put it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give.”
Aristotle supports Barclay on the meaning of "kolasis."
The only word in the Gospels for “punishment” with regard to God punishing evildoers is “kolasis,” which according to Aristotle, who knew Greek word meanings better than anybody who ever walked the planet, said that “kolasis” is the kind of punishment which “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer,” which means it is for the betterment or improvement of the person being punished.
This is contrasted with “timoria,” which Aristotle said is the kind of punishment which is “inflicted in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” (Rhet. 1369b13).
In addition to Barclay’s opinion above, let’s consider some other respected sources about the proper translation of “aionios:"
The Rotterham Emphasized Bible translates “kolasis aionios” in Matthew 25:46 as “age abiding correction.”
Young’s Literal Translation translates “kolasis aionios” in Matthew 25:46 as “punishment age.”
The Concordant Literal Translation translates “kolasis aionios” in Matthew 25:46 as “chastening eonian," or “chastening age” in other words. Our English word “eon” derives from the Greek word “aionios.” Eon, as we use the word, speaks of ages or cycles of indeterminate amounts of time. The term is often used in the plural form, such as “It’s been eons since we’ve talked,” or “Eons ago the universe was formed.” The point is that we don’t even use the term today to refer to “everlasting” in the sense of never ending. Think how silly it sounds to pluralize “everlasting” into “everlastings," yet “eon” is pluralized into “eons” all the time.
The best translators of the New Testament Greek text would be the Greek fathers of the church over the first 500 years. They were Christian. They were scholars. They lived nearest to the time the New Testament was written and would have a better grasp of the grammatical nuances and cultural linguistics of recent generations. Koine Greek was a lost language for hundreds of years and it is somewhat presumptuous for modern scholars to think they know Biblical Greek better than did the Greek-speaking Church fathers.
The Church fathers and writers who used the term “aionios” in their writings to refer to an indefinite “age” and not to an “unending” or “everlasting” eternity are: Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hermogones, Origen, Eusebius, Gregory of Nyssa, and Avitus.
“Eternity (Greek Aionios) signifies in Scripture sometimes the fact that we do not know the end, sometimes the fact that there is no end in the present world, but there will be one in the next. Sometimes eternity means a certain length of time, even that of a human life.” (Origen, Commentary on Romans, Book 6, section 5).
The Emperor Justinian in A.D. 540 tried to extinguish Origen’s teachings by defining Catholic doctrine at that time. “The Holy Church of Christ teaches an endless aionios (ATELEUTETOS aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked.” Aionios was not enough in his judgment to denote endless duration, so he employed ateleutetos. The point is that “aionios” by itself did not mean “everlasting.” It needed to be strengthened with another word to in fact mean “endless,” like “ateleutetos.”
Jews who were contemporaries with Christ, but who wrote in Greek, show that “aionios” was not used to mean “everlasting.” Josephus the historian used “aionios” to refer to temples which were already destroyed (and thus not “everlasting”), indeterminate prison sentences and time lapses between historical events. He never used the word to denote “everlasting,” but rather to mean an indeterminate period or season. The Jewish writer Philo always used the words athanaton, ateleuteton or aidion to denote endless and aionion for temporary duration.
Augustine, who struggled mightily with Greek, claimed for years that the only meaning of “aionios” was “everlasting,” yet even he had to acknowledge his error when visited by the Spanish presbyter Orosius, who convinced Augustine of his error. Augustine relented, but only to the extent that “aionios” did not only mean “everlasting.” Augustine still believed it means “everlasting” with regard to Hell.
To summarize then, Greek word “Aionios,” which is sometimes translated as “everlasting” in Scripture (as in “everlasting punishment”), does NOT in fact mean "unending or everlasting in quantity of time."
Rather, “Aionios” speaks to an “indeterminate age set by God alone.” The word refers to a certain quality (not quantity) of being - - whether it be “aionios life” or “aionios remedial-punishment.” Aionios is always qualified by what it is describing.
For instance, the word “great,” when applied to a merciful sentence imposed by a kind-hearted judge, might refer to a small amount of time in jail. Conversely, “great,” when applied to an atrocious crime, for which the judge “throws the book” at the defendant, might refer to a life-sentence in jail.
Similarly, the nature and quality of aionios, applied to the life of God, is entirely different than when it is applied to the chastening or punishment of God. “GREAT life” in God is certainly unending, since death will have been completely defeated, but the unending length is not the primary essence of that “GREAT life.” Rather, the limitless quality of love and peace which come from being totally at one with the Lord is the key aspect of this “GREAT life.” On the other hand, “GREAT punishment” by God will not be unending since He punishes to correct and rehabilitate and He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet. 3:9.
Life in God is not everlasting because it is aionios, but rather aionios is everlasting because it is referring to life in God.
Conversely, aionios punishment is not temporary because aionios means temporary, but rather aionios is temporary in this context since God’s chastening is curative and incapable of being eternally resisted. “For his anger is but for a moment; His favor is for a life-time: Weeping may tarry for the night, But joy ‘cometh’ in the morning.” Psalm 30:5.
Aionios then, by itself, means an “indeterminate age,” not an “unending age.” Only the context of the passage provides guidance as to the actual quality and duration of the age.
THE BIBLE HELL
The words rendered hell in the bible, sheol, hadees, tartarus, and gehenna,
shown to denote a state of temporal duration.
All the texts containing the word examined and explained in harmony
with the doctrine of universal salvation. -J.W. Hanson D.D.-
Beacon - Ministries / Grace Bible Fellowship
We become what we worship !
Who do you worship? ? ?
“What people revere, they resemble, either for ruin or restoration”.
The majority of Christians normally believe that the consequence of sins (if people are not covered by the blood of Christ) is to be burnt in hell for all eternity, while others think sinners will be annihilated in flames of judgment.
It may come as a surprise to learn that the Bible nowhere teaches that every unrepentant sinner will burn in hell. It does say there is a lake of fire which will exist at the end of the Millennium (Revelation 20:10), but that does not teach that all present day sinners will be consigned to it. Nor does the Bible say that sinners will live within an inferno for all eternity.
The very opposite is true. The Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), not to live for eternity.
Everlasting life is a gift from God; it is not something inherent within man (Romans 6:23). What the Bible does show, and shows very clearly, is that the penalty for unforgiven sins is death. God will determine the necessary means by which the deaths of unrepentant sinners will occur. And He will not use fire in every case to bring about such deaths.
Is There Eternal Fire?
It can be shown from biblical examples that hell fire is not eternal and that the penalty for un repentant sin is not to burn in hell forever. Let us look at some modern examples which have a legal basis for punishment associated with them that reflect the judicial sentences for sins or crimes mentioned in the Bible.
Suppose you ran a stop light with your automobile and were apprehended by the police.
When brought before the judge, he fined you $50 or five days in jail. The wages of your particular “sin” (in this case) was $50. But let us suppose you had no money in your pocket to pay the fine. If so, you would then be liable to spend the five days in jail.
“And the judge [shall] deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto you [said Christ], thou shall by no means come out thence, till thou has paid the uttermost farthing.”
• Against Celsus, 6:26
Every part of the sentence rendered by the judge must be met in full!
However, let us say you had a friend who accompanied you to court and that he had that amount of cash on him. He took the $50 out of his wallet and paid your fine in full. Since he did this for you, you would be able to walk out of the court with your penalty fully met. But only if the complete amount were given to the clerk of the court would you be free. The Bible, as shown in the quote by Christ given above, supports the legitimacy of this example even in the sense of divine judgment. The point is: someone else paid your debt for you, but the person had to pay for your debt to society in full.
Let us now give an example of a more serious crime — say a felony was committed.
The judge might say the wages of such a “sin” is twenty years in prison. In this case it would not be possible in our Western courts for some friend to take your place and go to prison for you (nor would a simple monetary fine be allowable), but the theological teaching of the Bible would permit a person to take your place. This may seem absurd on the surface, but it is nevertheless true. The Bible, in the matter of paying the penalty for sins against the Deity [not, however, against man], allows for vicarious payment. That is what the law of offering animals for sins was all about. The animal paid the penalty (in a symbolic way) instead of the person (Leviticus 16:30, 34). This, of course, would not be sanctioned in our modern courts, but suppose the judge said “twenty years” and a person were legally able to represent the felon. If so, the substitute would have to meet the full penalty of the law, “until the uttermost farthing be paid.”
I recall my first wife (now deceased) once said:
I wouldn’t wish eternal torment either on the person who hates me most or the person whom I hate most. And God has got to be at least as good as I am!
I like that Don… Thanks.
The little word “at” is in some translations of koine. When we read of every knee, every tongue and every dimension worshiping our Lord (Phil. 2:10.11) it is not “at” but “IN/EN.”
Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 2:10-11 - New International Version
Do you know what it means in Canon to be IN/EN Christ Jesus? That is precisely what is transpiring in this glorious consummation of Abba in His beloved Son, the Lord Isous! ! !.
1.Tartarus
Hades
Sheol
Geheena
Chapter 16 - Hebrew and Greek words mistranslated to mean Hell – Gods Plan for All
A.T. Robertson Word Pictures
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow ( ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi ). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.
Under the earth ( καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn ). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.
Yepper 
