The Hell on Earth View - a subset of UR

[John]

I was wondering if anyone might see that physical death was not the penalty for Adam’s sin. Entropy gives evidence the natural world has been subject to decay and corruption since it’s beginning. Origen writing on the subject of Romans 8:20-22 saw the disorder that binds creation and this was long before the laws of modern physics and entropy was known. As a side note I do believe man was living and dying like the other animals until God separated him to a higher order by breathing His hagio pneuma/pure breath into him.

I am just beginning to explore this concept and would love to hear the thoughts of others. I haven’t taken this for gospel just yet however the evidence is mounting.

John

[John]

I appreciate your thoughtful message Todd and have somewhat of a reply written out as to how I see the Lake of Fire. I must admit I could never go with the soul sleep nor the free will you infer in your message as I have had a different doctrine settled in my heart concerning those concepts.

Being pressed for time I cannot submit my completed message on the LOF today but do care to read some thoughts on my preceding post. I believe the great veil that hangs over much of our Theologies is, we concentrate and even pine way too much for this world. I include myself in this accusation.

I see God as “all of time” and I believe Time goes on past the grave where He ever lifts us into higher realms of Himself. Thus God as the Lake of (transforming) Fire working within Himself (time) continues to do His positive work. This would bring me to my last thought which is that i believe to understand the Lake Of Fire one must contemplate what “time” is for they go hand in hand.

Always moving toward Oneness in Him by grace,

John

[Aaron]

Sonia wrote:
What about the will of the person? It seems to be that not all of our sin proceeds from the fact of our corrupted flesh, but from the corruption that we hold on to with our wills. If we have harbored selfishness, deceit, covetousness, lust for power, etc. in ourselves, will our natural physical death cause us to automatically give up those things? I’m thinking we will need to overcome, with a willingness to be crucified with Christ. “Whoever loses his life for my sake, shall find it.”

Hi Sonia,

People choose to sin because, at whatever moment they are being tempted, their desire to sin is simply stronger than their desire not to sin. Our will always follows our desire, or preference, at any given moment. So what happens when the desire to be selfish, to deceive, to covet, and to have power over others, is not merely suppressed but taken away completely? Answer: The person no longer makes selfish, deceitful, covetous, and power-hungry choices! And why would they if they had no desire to?

As long as we have a nature from which “unlawful” desires such as these can arise, we will have to rely on God’s Spirit to help us to overcome them by giving us a stronger desire to resist the temptation to gratify them. But if, in the resurrection, we are given a perfected nature from which only “lawful” desires can arise, then sin will be an impossibility - just as it is for God.

[Dondi]

=“John”]I was wondering if anyone might see that physical death was not the penalty for Adam’s sin. Entropy gives evidence the natural world has been subject to decay and corruption since it’s beginning.

I see the penalty of death as starting upon the eating of that fruit, but it is the process of death leading to death. No they didn’t up and die that very day, but the decay started toward that inevidable end. It is the slow poison of death that crept in. They did indeed die, as much as a terminal cancer patient is dead, by all rights.

[John]

=“John”]I was wondering if anyone might see that physical death was not the penalty for Adam’s sin. Entropy gives evidence the natural world has been subject to decay and corruption since it’s beginning.

I see the penalty of death as starting upon the eating of that fruit, but it is the process of death leading to death. No they didn’t up and die that very day, but the decay started toward that inevidable end. It is the slow poison of death that crept in. They did indeed die, as much as a terminal cancer patient is dead, by all rights.

Thanks for your thoughts Dondi. I am out the door to shovel my way out of this latest Wyoming snowfall. I have time to just copy and paste a part of a letter i wrote to some friends this morning on the subject.

… for a long time I have believed physical death was visited upon mankind because of Adam’s sin. At this point I am almost convinced this is not so as this form of death was already part of the cosmos before Adam sinned. There seems to be much scripture to give evidence to the idea it was spiritual death that was the great judgment for Adam’s offense. Science with it’s old earth evidence and entropy along with the concept of a form of man existing before Adam was filled with the Hagios Pneuma/pure breath of God seems to mount a good argument in favor of what I am seeing. I may be wrong but am excited as with my further study I look forward to settling the matter in my heart, Lord willing.

Be blessed,

John

[SLJ]

Sonia wrote:
What about the will of the person? It seems to be that not all of our sin proceeds from the fact of our corrupted flesh, but from the corruption that we hold on to with our wills. If we have harbored selfishness, deceit, covetousness, lust for power, etc. in ourselves, will our natural physical death cause us to automatically give up those things? I’m thinking we will need to overcome, with a willingness to be crucified with Christ. “Whoever loses his life for my sake, shall find it.”

Hi Sonia,

People choose to sin because, at whatever moment they are being tempted, their desire to sin is simply stronger than their desire not to sin. Our will always follows our desire, or preference, at any given moment. So what happens when the desire to be selfish, to deceive, to covet, and to have power over others, is not merely suppressed but taken away completely? Answer: The person no longer makes selfish, deceitful, covetous, and power-hungry choices! And why would they if they had no desire to?

As long as we have a nature from which “unlawful” desires such as these can arise, we will have to rely on God’s Spirit to help us to overcome them by giving us a stronger desire to resist the temptation to gratify them. But if, in the resurrection, we are given a perfected nature from which only “lawful” desires can arise, then sin will be an impossibility - just as it is for God.

Ok, I see what you’re saying. I’ll chew on that for awhile and look into the scriptural evidence for it. My initial thought is that I’m not sure that everyone is automatically and instantly given a new nature that no longer desires anything sinful. After all, why did God not do that from the beginning? It seems to me that we have to “grow into” that new nature, and the growing begins with our repentance, recognition of Christ, and desire to follow Him.

That’s just my initial response, before looking into your arguments and reasoning from scripture. I hope I’ll have time for that soon.

Thanks for the response,
Sonia

[Todd]

The most detailed account of the resurrection is in 1 Cor 15 which includes a limited description

of the order of events.

So you recognize that it isn’t talking about a full description of the order of events. The purpose being instead to show how it all ends up and why the resurrection is important as a principle in this.

Consequently, arguments from silence in the text would be proportionately weak anyway; much moreso on a point positively testified to by other texts.

As it happens, though, death comes from life, and so insofar as death is the final enemy it may still be being loved and fondled by those who are alive. The indications elsewhere that Christ continues being wrathful (as well as merciful) to those who despite resurrection still are insisting on their sins, is entirely consonant with this limited description of the order of events.

But I would much rather discuss this in more detail in other threads. (Which I was starting to do, until BA showed up and people started writing to me complaining about him.)

Other resurrection passages, such as Rom 8:18-23, also make no mention of a gathering for judgment.

Which is of no weight as evidence against positive mentions of a gathering for judgment elsewhere, unless those other resurrection passages explicitly state that no one at all is resurrected to judgment.

Incidentally, you didn’t at all answer the question I actually asked (and which you yourself quoted me as asking).

(But maybe you will in the other thread, for better topical consolidation. That’d be okay, too. When I finally get around to that thread, I’ll try to remember to post it again, if you haven’t quoted it in followup already by then.)

Jason,

There are a few references of a gathering for judgment, but they are not associated with “resurrection” language. The sheep and the goats passage in Matt 25 does not mention the resurrection. 2 Cor 5:10 does not mention the resurrection, Revelation Chapter 20 is written in symbolic language which I believe does not refer to the final resurrection mentioned in 1 Cor 15. The same thing can be said about John 5:24-29 which is being discussed in another thread.

I see the judgment and our gathering together unto him in a symbolic way. When Christ rose from the dead and ascended into heaven He took His place at the right hand of God and has been sitting in judgment ever since, and will continue in this capacity until He turns over the Kingdom to God. The whole world is “gathered together” unto Him at all times; His Holy Spirit is working in the hearts of men to accuse or approve our thoughts and actions. When one is overcome in sin God executes his wrath by allowing them to suffer the consequences of their sinfulness. He gives them over to a reprobate mind in their own corruption. This, I believe, is what the judgment is all about. As it states in 2 Cor 5:10, we receive for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. In other words, we reap what we sow. If we sow to our fleshly desires, we reap corruption, but if we sow to the Spirit, we reap abundant life in Christ.

I’m not sure if I am answering your questions or not, but maybe you can understand better what I am trying to present.

Todd

[Dondi]

=“John”]I was wondering if anyone might see that physical death was not the penalty for Adam’s sin. Entropy gives evidence the natural world has been subject to decay and corruption since it’s beginning.

I see the penalty of death as starting upon the eating of that fruit, but it is the process of death leading to death. No they didn’t up and die that very day, but the decay started toward that inevidable end. It is the slow poison of death that crept in. They did indeed die, as much as a terminal cancer patient is dead, by all rights.

Thanks for your thoughts Dondi. I am out the door to shovel my way out of this latest Wyoming snowfall. I have time to just copy and paste a part of a letter i wrote to some friends this morning on the subject.

… for a long time I have believed physical death was visited upon mankind because of Adam’s sin. At this point I am almost convinced this is not so as this form of death was already part of the cosmos before Adam sinned. There seems to be much scripture to give evidence to the idea it was spiritual death that was the great judgment for Adam’s offense. Science with it’s old earth evidence and entropy along with the concept of a form of man existing before Adam was filled with the Hagios Pneuma/pure breath of God seems to mount a good argument in favor of what I am seeing. I may be wrong but am excited as with my further study I look forward to settling the matter in my heart, Lord willing.

Be blessed,

John

So you are of the old earth/old universe, theistic evolution flavor? Have you ever read any books by Gerald Schroeder? In one book, The Science of God, he explains that while he believes in evolution, there is a certain ‘divine wisdom’ contained in the process (for how can you account for abiogenesis or the ‘natural’ formation of DNA). But he also believes that Adam and Eve were real people, but that God breathed life into Adam and Eve at the point in human evolution when man became a viable creature. In other words, there were hominoids that evolved until such a time that God deemed that part of creation as complete, and in two of these creatures God breathed His Spirit into them and they became ‘aware’ in God’s image, having a fully formed conscience, in the state of grace and innocence and perfect undying form, able to communicate and have a relationship with God, thus the ‘creation’ of man in Genesis.

Not saying I buy into this, but it is one way around the problem of death before Homo Sapiens evolved and still have the condition of immortality in Adam and Eve. It also solves the later mystery of what people Cain went to after he killed Abel, for they seemd to be a separate tribe. AND it gives Genesis 6:1-4 an intriguing twist with the Sons of God (Adam’s created line) coming into the daughters of man (evolved line).

Interesting, but deserves further study. Here’s a taste of what he espouses off his website:

Evolution Bible Style

[Born_Again]

Sonia and Aaron.

After we are born again…we no longer have a sinful nature or spiritual death nature in our bodies. Romans 8:2 " For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 6:6-7 " Knowing this, that our old man( old sinful nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed(old sinful nature destroyed), that we no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin."

Why do we sin after we are born again? Because we are in the process of renewing the spirit of our minds and our soul and flesh remain unredeemed and have the remnant of those sin desires that slowly go away when you renew them by the word of God, prayer, fasting, worshiping, etc… We already possess a perfect nature ( our reborn spirit) by being made alive together with Christ and were raised up with Him and seated with Him in heavenly places. ( Eph 2:5-6). (Eph 4:24)" Put on your new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth." Hallelujah! Praise God forever. Aaron, I don’t know about you, but I have already been raised up with Jesus and possess my new self( reborn spirit)( perfect nature)…I get my glorified body in the 1st resurrection. Glory to God.

[Aaron]

BA,

Unless you’re using the word “nature” in a different sense than I am, the word denotes the essential properties, attributes or qualities that mark off what something is, and without which it would be something other than what it is. That is, it refers to one’s inherent character or basic constitution. Now, by a perfect, sinless nature I understand a nature that makes a person incapable of sinning. The fact that you do still sin is proof that you do not yet have a perfect, sinless nature.

[Born_Again]

Aaron.

you said: The fact that you do still sin is proof that you do not yet have a perfect, sinless nature.

Born Again: What does Ephesians 4:24 say, Aaron? “Put on your new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.” In other words, walk in the spirit, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Where from the bible do you get “we still sin because we do not have a perfect, sinless nature”?

[Aaron]

Sonia wrote:
My initial thought is that I’m not sure that everyone is automatically and instantly given a new nature that no longer desires anything sinful. After all, why did God not do that from the beginning?

That’s a good question. Here’s how I see it: the fact that God subjected mankind to futility “in hope” (Rom 8:20) suggests to me that God deemed it more conducive to our long-term happiness to start us off in an imperfect condition.

[Aaron]

Born Again: What does Ephesians 4:24 say, Aaron? “Put on your new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.” In other words, walk in the spirit, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

BA,

If the “new self” referred to a perfectly sinless nature we already possessed, we wouldn’t have to be exhorted to “put off the old self” and to “put on” the new one. To “put on the new self” is simply to live worthy of one’s calling as a believer by continuing to renew the spirit of one’s mind (btw, if one’s spirit were “perfect” it wouldn’t need renewing). Paul isn’t talking about sinless perfection here - which is what having a sinless nature would make us.

Where from the bible do you get “we still sin because we do not have a perfect, sinless nature”?

Everywhere in the Bible that speaks of believers having the potential to sin, or actually sinning. If a person had a perfect, sinless nature they would be incapable of sinning.

[Born_Again]

Aaron.

you said: if the “new self” referred to a perfectly sinless nature we already possessed, we wouldn’t have to be exhorted to “put off the old self” and to “put on” the new one. To “put on the new self” is simply to live worthy of one’s calling as a believer by continuing to renew the spirit of one’s mind (btw, if one’s spirit were “perfect” it wouldn’t need renewing). Paul isn’t talking about sinless perfection here - which is what having a sinless nature would make us.

Born Again: The “old self” is the remnant of the soul and the flesh that are not redeemed that remember the sin you once committed, especially the flesh. Why do you think we must renew our minds with the word of God, prayer, etc? It is not the spirit that needs renewing ( that was renewed when you were born again) but the soul ( mind, will, emotions) and your flesh. You do have a sinless nature, rather you know it or not ( your reborn spirit).That is if you are born again.

Born Again believers have the ability not to sin because after we are born again…we no longer have a sinful nature or spiritual death nature in our bodies. Romans 8:2 " For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 6:6-7 " Knowing this, that our old man( old sinful nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed(old sinful nature destroyed), that we no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin."

Aaron, do this discussion a favor and respond to my topic "Are you Born Again. What does it mean? "

[John]

Dondi, I enjoyed your thoughts, as they most all seem to fit pretty much with what I am seeing. I will definitely check out the site. Thanks and one good turn begs another, so I am giving you a link to my favorite of a series of three short writings on " The Origin of Humanness."

greater-emmanuel.org/jg/2010/humanness2.php

[Aaron]

Born Again wrote:
It is not the spirit that needs renewing

But earlier BA said:

Because we are in the process of renewing the spirit of our minds

Which is it, BA? Either we have a spirit that needs renewing or we don’t. Here’s my scripturally-informed opinion: The “spirit” of our minds (which you admit believers are in “the process of renewing”) is the same “spirit” that Christ says is “born of the Spirit.” Which means I believe the “new birth” is not a once-for-all-time mystical event that instantly “barcodes” us as heaven-bound, but is instead a relational status that is maintained by our abiding in Christ (and yes, I plan on commenting on your new post about being “born again” when I get the time ).

You do have a sinless nature, rather you know it or not ( your reborn spirit).That is if you are born again.

You mean “whether you know it or not.” And no, neither of us has a sinless nature.

believers have the ability not to sin because after we are born again…we no longer have a sinful nature or spiritual death nature in our bodies. Romans 8:2 " For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 6:6-7 " Knowing this, that our old man( old sinful nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed(old sinful nature destroyed), that we no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin."

Neither Rom 6:6-7 nor Rom 8:2 means that believers have acquired a “sinless nature”; the meaning is that, for those who have come to a knowledge of the truth, sin has become the exception instead of the rule. Again, to have a “sinless nature” is to be sinless. Believers are not sinless. Thus, believers do not have a “sinless nature.” And you have yet to prove otherwise.

[Melchizedek]

The apostle Paul even complained about having to continue to wrestle with his sinful nature (the flesh).

[Born_Again]

Aaron.

you said :Which means I believe the “new birth” is not a once-for-all-time mystical event that instantly “barcodes” us as heaven-bound, but is instead a relational status that is maintained by our abiding in Christ (and yes, I plan on commenting on your new post about being “born again” when I get the time ).

Born Again: I respectfully disagree. The New Birth gives us the seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. ( Eph 1:13-14) In other words, You are the possession that is being purchased and I’m the earnest( Holy Spirit) that has come to insure Heaven…that Heaven will receive full price of your possession because you are a son of God. You mean something to him. You are sealed with the Holy Ghost Of promise.

[Aaron]

The New Birth gives us the seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. ( Eph 1:13-14)

Eph 1:13-14 doesn’t say that “the New Birth gives us the seal of the Holy Spirit.” But even if it did say this, it wouldn’t mean that the “seal” was permanently given to those who were “born again” but did not maintain this status.

[Born_Again]

Aaron.

The whole first chapter of Ephesians speaks of the redemption blessing’s “in Christ”…you have to experience the New birth to be “in Christ”. How does one break the seal of the Holy Spirit, Aaron?