How does one discontinue abiding in Christ, BA?
Aaron.
One does not… Now answer my question without asking a question.
Really? So Christ’s words in John 15 are purely hypothetical?
Aaron.
How does one break the seal of the Holy Spirit, Aaron?
MY God! 
We have Jesus himself posting on the forum - 
First of all, as I’m sure you’re aware, Paul is not talking about a literal “seal” here. The language is figurative. Second, to be “sealed” (literally “stamped”) by the Holy Spirit simply means to be given the assurance of God’s approbation, through his Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are “children of God” (i.e., that we have begun to resemble God in character, for that is what it means to be a “child” or “son” of God under the new covenant). And for those prior to the establishing of the Messianic kingdom (which I believe took place in 70 AD), this “seal” was also the “guarantee” of their inheritance in it (Eph 1:14). But this inner assurance of God’s approval was, and continues to be, conditioned on our remaining faithful (Rom 8:12-17). We enjoy this assurance only insofar as we are walking by the Spirit, and being led by the Spirit (Gal 5:16-26). Those who discontinue abiding in Christ and subsequently fall away lose the assurance of God’s approbation that the Holy Spirit initially gives those who believe:
Of course, I do not think any of these passages have anything to do with anyone’s post-mortem destiny; those who fail to remain faithful in their relationship with God and are not what John calls “overcomers” (Rev 2:7, 10-11, 17-26; 3:4-5, 8-12, 14-22, etc.) are not forever doomed after they die. They do, however, indefinitely lose their inheritance in the kingdom of God while they’re still alive, and will have to reap what they sow - which, in the case of those who are not sowing to the Spirit, will be what Paul calls “corruption” (Gal 6:8). Which (sort of) brings us back to the original topic of this thread. 
Indeed! It’s a rather humbling experience to be in discussion with someone who possesses a perfect, sinless nature. 
Aaron,
I am interested to read your understanding of God’s judgment and the “gathering together”. Do you see this as an onging judgment as I have asserted or do you see a singular event yet to come?
Todd
Here’s three interesting quotes from 2 Peter which apply very well to this thread.
2 Pet 1:4 NKJV
by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Peter tells us the goal of these precious promises is that we might have a God-like nature and escape a corrupted life.
2 Pet 2:12 NKJV
But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
To perish, as it is used here and in John 3:16 (and many other New Testament passages), is to have a life encumbered in corruption. Such was the case for those mentioned in Rom 1:18-32. The good news is that even though one has perished in this way he can still find life in Christ through repentence and faith.
2 Pet 2:19 NKJV
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
Liberty in Christ is to be free from the bondage of a corrupted life. Christ came to deliver us from sin and its devastating consequences.
Todd
Aaron.
Religion has blinded you to the fact you are a New Creation in Christ… a new species…old things have passed away behold all things are new. Eph 4:24 The new man is after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Your reborn human spirit is the new man…the old man ( sin nature was crucified with Christ). Aaron, I don’t know what level your on spiritually, but this is T-bone steak from God’s word that spiritual babes cannot eat.
BA, since this discussion we’re having is kind of off-topic, I’m going to respond to this comment on the thread you started regarding the new birth. And then when I get the chance I’ll try to add more of my thoughts on what being “born again” means.
Hi Todd,
I believe that divine judgment has always been an ongoing thing. But when Christ began to reign (having already been delegated judicial authority from his Father - John 5:22), I believe he commenced the work of doing what God had been doing all along (i.e., repaying people according to what they have done - Matt 16:27; cf. Jeremiah 25:14; Heb 2:2). And I understand the actual age during which Christ would reign as King and Judge over the peoples of the earth as being referred to by Paul in Acts 17:30-31 (with the word “day” simply meaning a period of time characterized by something new; see Isaiah 11:10; Zech 2:11; 13:1; 14:9; John 8:56; Rom 13:12; 2 Cor 6:2). Significantly, according to the Hebrew prophets, the time during which the Messiah was to execute his God-given authority as Judge over the peoples of the earth was understood to be contemporaneous with his reign as King: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land” (Jeremiah 23:5; cf. Psalm 110; Zech 14:16-19; Micah 3:1-5; 4:1-4; John 9:39, 12:31; Matt 19:27-28; Matt 12:18-21).
In the book of Isaiah, we read much concerning the Messiah’s reign and of his judging the world in righteousness. In Isaiah 2:3-4, the prophet declares:
"It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it, and many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go the teaching and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."
Here, the Messiah’s judging people refers not to his sentencing them to either endless bliss or endless misery in a future state. Far from this, it simply refers to his ruling or governing them in such a way as will ultimately lead to universal peace among the inhabitants of the earth.
In chapter 16 verse 5, we read concerning the Messiah’s reign, “In mercy the throne will be established; and one will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness.”
And in chapter 11 we read:
There shall come forth a rod from the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots. The spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. His delight is in the fear of the LORD, and he shall not judge by the sight of his eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears; but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked. Righteousness shall be the belt of his loins, and faithfulness the belt of his waist…And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek him, and his resting place shall be glorious. (Isaiah 11:1-5, 10)
Similar are God’s words in chapter 42, vv. 1-4:
"Behold! My servant whom I uphold, my elect one in whom my soul delights! I have put my spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. He will not cry out, nor raise his voice, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed he will not break, and smoking flax he will not quench; he will bring forth justice for truth. He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands shall wait for his law."
From such verses and passages as these it appears evident to me that the judgment under the reign of Christ is not reserved for the end of redemptive history (i.e., at a so-called “final judgment”), but that it was understood to take place for the entire duration of the Messianic reign, from the time of its commencement to the time of its consummation. Thus, I understand divine justice during the Messianic reign to be just as active as it was before Christ’s coming - people are simply being judged according to greater truth (i.e., all that was brought to light by Christ and his apostles). All who are righteous (i.e., those who, by faith, are being led by the Spirit) are blessed for their good works, while all who are unrighteous (i.e., those who are living according to the flesh) are punished according to their evil works. And I believe both rewards and punishments are dealt through providentially-controlled circumstances. Thus, under the Messianic reign (as in all ages prior to his coming), people are judged according to what they do, receiving either temporal blessing or temporal punishment as the Lord sees fit. No one is immune or exempt from this ever-active and ongoing judgment. Moreover, I see this “day” of judgment under Christ as continuing until the time when all people are subjected to Christ, and death - the last enemy - is destroyed.
Hope that helps.
Born again,
So you don’t believe in a transformation by the renewing of the mind?
Auggy.
Of course.
Aaron,
Thanks for your thoughts on this. I’m glad to know that we see this the same way. A King doesn’t wait until the end of his reign to deal out justice, he does so throughout his reign as issues come up. It makes perfect sense to me. 
The Old Testament references you quoted make it clear; thanks for those.
You quoted this verse from Acts…
Acts 17:30
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
I have thought that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is primarily the way God makes this commandment to “all men everywhere,” as suggested in this verse from John 16…
John 16:7-11
*7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. *
We also have other scriptural evidence that judgment is taking place now.
Rom 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 13:1-6
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing.
I see Matt 25 which speaks of the “sheep and the goats” as an ongoing event in the lives of people. Those who neglect to help those in need suffer God’s wrath in the form of guilt, shame, broken relationships, etc. Those who remember to help others are blessed with love, joy, peace, friendship, etc.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Todd
The main idea behind this view is simple. Christ came to save us from sin and the corruption that follows, not from hell.
Matt 1:21
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
Rom 6:18
And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
2 Pet 1:4
by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
A life apart from Christ is a self-destructive one. As I mentioned earlier, sin leads to corruption which leads to more sin and more corruption; it is a slippery slope. It is from this “wide path” that we are delivered through faith in Christ. The tribulation and anguish mentioned by Paul in Rom 2:9 refers not to an after-life hell but to a hell-on-earth one experiences in this life when overcome by evil.
Consider John 3:16…
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
The term “perish” here does not refer to anything post-life; rather, it describes a corrupted life. Likewise, “eternal life” does not mean “live forever in heaven”; instead, it refers to a certain quality of life that one experiences through knowing Christ and the Eternal God.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Todd
The original sin doctrine was invented by Augustine in the 4th Century, prior to this, there was no such thought. It took 50 years for Augustine to fully develop it. It is a result of his Manichaean theology.
Manichaean theology: an adherent of the dualistic religious system of Manes, with a basic doctrine of a conflict between light and dark, matter being regarded as dark and evil.
We do not have a corrupted flesh, we never did. However, we have a choice, pursue Christ or pursue self, a matter of choice and a matter of will. If we choose to live according to the flesh (itself is not evil, but is a slave to sin because we choose to sin not because we are of a fallen nature) then we are placed under the Law of Sin and Death; if we choose to live for God through Christ Jesus, we live by the Spirit and are free from the Law of Sin and Death and abide by the divine Law of Life in Christ Jesus!
That is why repentance is necessary in escaping fleshly desire, not escaping this flesh. It is all about the mind and heart, it was never about the body.
It’s not that our “flesh” (i.e., our physical bodies) is “corrupted” in the sense of morally evil or depraved; I think we are born with the same, mortal bodies (which of course includes our brain) that was possessed by Adam and Eve, and that they are perfect for the purpose for which God created them. But the kind of body with which we were created (again, which includes our brain) is essentially a primate body - that is, we are human persons constituted by a primate, animal body. And these bodies necessarily have impulses and desires shared by all primates (and other animals) which can potentially come into conflict with the moral sense produced by our rational mind (i.e., that which allows us to be self-aware and to make rational choices, which separates us from all other animals). It is this aspect of our nature that I think Paul is talking about when he speaks of “the flesh”; it is that aspect of our nature that is common to all animals.
Moreover, what wouldn’t be morally wrong for an animal to do (them being amoral beings) becomes wrong for us if it’s liable to violate our conscience. When certain desires or impulses rise up in opposition to what our rational mind tells us is the right thing to do, they cease to be merely amoral desires and become “sinful desire” (i.e., when we yield to them, we sin). All sin is an act of the will, but there would be no sin if there were no desires which, when yielded to, result in sin. And these desires come from “the flesh.” But again, it’s not because our bodies are corrupt in the sense of morally evil; it’s simply that they’re not in complete harmony with our rational mind (as I think is the case with, say, angelic beings). And that aspect of our nature which is common to the animals and not in harmony with our rational mind will not inherit the kingdom of God when Christ returns to raise the dead and subject all people to himself (1 Cor 15:42-50).
*Aaron, I am just now, in the act of writing a message to someone on the subject of physical death. I believe this message confronts the same dilemma you are writing of. Here is part of my message. *
“Lately I have been drawn to realize there was physical death in the world before there was Adam or his sin. Adam being created in futility and frustration had a sin nature before he sinned (Rom 8:20). He was an earthy man made of the earth. So it is of late,I am in the midst of realizing the ramifications of this. The organized church has taught a “new earth creation story” but science shows us differently… Fossils show physical death was a process in the plant world, animal world and in pre-Adamic man. Cosmology and Physics demonstrate the cosmos of which the earth is part, was from it’s beginning tending toward disorder. So we see Adam taken from the substance of the earth had a disorderly nature already in Him. He is as the scriptures teach us the earthly man, the physical man the sinful man. He is created to frustration and futility which means he originated in disorder”
*In closing, some time soon I would love to discuss the idea that physical death did not come by way of Adam’s manifested sin. Maybe you guys have already broached the subject and if so I would love the to receive the link.
John*
John.
No offense, but this pertains to you…The doctrine some people on this board are pettling isn’t profitable for anything except a religious movie along side Constantine. 