The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Hitler Dilemma

You have totally reasoned with him in saying you agree with the evangelical understanding of the bible. Good for you, Good for you both. But there are other views, views that are worth consideration, though you don’t want to hear such things.

Don, you gotta know that there are alternative views. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

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I agree. AD70 was a day of judgment/lake of fire. This is why many of the words in the bible are STILL relevant today.

Hitler may have been a monster, but he did not exterminate 6 million people all by himself. War is hell. It is all the sins of the world coming to a head; a result of mankind’s disobedience to God’s word.

War can also be the inevitable escalation of conflict as a result of one side choosing to be be so oppressive, destabilizing or flat out evil that the rest of the civilized world has to defeat them.

We are not talking about soldiers on the field. We are talking about 6 million civilians picked out and scapegoated by the supreme leader based on their ethnicity.

Hitlers regime is one of the most hideous examples of Satanic, demonic success in using a single human puppet to brainwash an army of human puppets in an effort to become the absolute god of this world.

This is one category of discussion in which nuance and alternate views are very suspect.

When arguing against statements like I just laid out, one would do well to emphasize what they are NOT trying to say for risk of being misunderstood.

I’m inclined to think such blame lays no further than Hitler and those following him, i.e., such as happened need NOT be duck-shoved sideways by laying blame on someone else (in this case Satan), but rather… fully owned by those having committed such atrocities.

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Had to look it up and ran across the following as well. Nothing to do with Hitler, though.

Aussies and ducks make for a colorful language.
" ducks on the pond

Look out - female approaching! A warning cry from a male as a signal to other men that a woman is approaching a traditionally all-male environment. It is a reminder that the men should modify their language and behaviour to avoid giving offence. It was first used in shearing sheds, but is now heard in other places, especially in a pub. While the first written evidence comes from the early 1980s the phrase probably goes back several decades earlier.

1982 P. Adam-Smith When We Rode the Rails : I remember well enough years ago hearing them yell ‘Ducks on the Pond!’ when a sheila hove in sight but that was more to warn a man to watch his tongue.

As a futurist (vs. a preterist), I don’t believe the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD included the resurrection of the dead, or the Second Coming, or the Final Judgment —literally, or even metaphorically.

And whereas there are partial fulfillments in 70 AD of events described in the Olivet Discourse (i.e., described in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21,) the vast bulk of Bible prophecy addresses events during a yet to come generation (spanning perhaps 40 years)—the generation that immediately leads up to the visible, physical Second Coming of Christ to earth to defeat Antichrist and Satan, and to set up his Millennial Kingdom, with headquarters in Jerusalem.

“The abomination of desolation” spoken of by Daniel was not the Romans of 70 AD, although like others before them, e.g., Antiochus Epiphanes, the Romans were likewise demonically motivated, and foreshadow the coming Antichrist.

When Jesus told the disciples, “Truly I tell you, SOME who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom/ see that the kingdom of God has come with power/ see the kingdom of God” (Matthew 16:28, Mk. 9:1, Lk. 9:27), we should notice that in all three accounts, this pronouncement is immediately followed by the Transfiguration of Christ, and the appearance of Moses and Elijah, personally witnessed by Peter, James, and John.

The (to me) obvious conclusion is that the Transfiguration is the fulfillment of this promise, to these three privileged men.

But preterists say this promise referred to the mystical Second Coming of Christ in 70 AD. And that idea, to me, is similar to the ideas of,

  1. Jehovah’s Witnesses, who say Christ returned invisibly in 1914 (see here)

  2. Postmillennial dominionists/New Agers, who say Jesus Christ does not come back bodily, but is ‘already returning in His Church’, and will reign on earth through His Church spiritually. This “Spiritual Second Coming of Christ” is Christ’s incarnation into those “overcomers,” those elite “Joel’s Army,” “Manifest Sons of God” folks who have had a paradigm shift and are now open to allowing his return (see here, here, here, here).

But we are specifically warned in 1 John 4:2-3 (KJV):

“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”

  • Note: I used the KJV on 1 John 4:2-3, because it says, "is come," which better captures the perpetual sense of the Greek construction, which encompasses past, present, and future. Jesus has chosen to permanently abide in the (now-glorified) physical body he received through Mary. We know that the physical realm—purged of all death—will some day merge with, and be subsumed by, the heavenly realm (Rev. 21:1-5). Jesus’ birth in a physical body was the initial intersection point in this process.

Again, Christ’s return will be physical and public, not spiritual and invisible. Jesus has warned us about this confusion:

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Mt. 24:26-27.

When Jesus announced in Matthew 24:34 that "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled,” he was prophetically addressing that yet future generation, those who will be alive when the events are finally being completely fulfilled.

Unlike preterists, I certainly don’t believe that the destruction of Jerusalem, with the death and enslavement of hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children, was God’s judgment against the Jews for rejecting Jesus as Messiah (vis-à-vis Jerusalem, Jerusalem…how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,” Mt. 23:37, Lk. 13:34).

As I have argued before, I don’t believe the unchanging God of love, represented exactly by Jesus, kills people: the devil is the killer with the power of death, not God (Heb. 2:14, John 10:10). Death is God’s stated enemy. 1 Cor. 15:26.

Preterists stumble over the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. In the opening of his Matthew 24 discussion of the end-times, Jesus pronounced that “there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (vs. 3). Preterists believe ALL the prophecies were fulfilled on that then-existing temple of Jesus’ day —which was subsequently destroyed within that generation.

Dave B has said,

Unlike preterists of the past, futurists of the past recognized that the dispersed Jews would indeed someday literally come back to Israel to reestablish their homeland, a process which amazingly, miraculously began after World War Two.

And futurists both then and now have always recognized that a new temple will be built in Jerusalem prior to the Second Coming. (When that happens as foretold, will every preterist repent and become a futurist? Let’s not hold our breath. :hot_face:)

I believe that the devil is a real person, the fallen archangel Lucifer (remember “the god of this age” 2 Cor. 4:4? remember, “who has the whole world in his power”? 1 Jn. 5:19); a person who will, some day soon, violently resist his coming eviction—as warned about in Revelation. And I believe the lake of fire is also yet future, and that the devil, who is still running around causing mayhem, has undeniably not been cast into it, yet (Rev. 20:10)!

I believe Adolf Hitler was undoubtedly a prototype of the Antichrist: but Satan’s probing attempts have not yet resulted in THE Antichrist—or at least, if he is among us, he has not yet come to the front of the world stage.

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And I guess Satan had nothing to do with crucifying Jesus either?

I recommend DeMar “Last Days Madness”

Kind of like Eve. The devil walked away from the garden brushing the dust off his hands while Adam and Eve were the only ones cursed.
Or did he?

So Satan stood by and watched Hitler and said to himself “Hmm i think this guy is vying for my job”
Or maybe “Gosh what a delghtfully evil plot…if only I had thought of that.”

Too tragic to be funny.


After a lot of study, I do agree with you on those issues. Of course others have done a lot of study and dis-agree.

The rest of the issues you bring up in your post, I’m not so sure about but I entertain the possibilities.

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Here ya go… avoid or evade (a responsibility or issue).

Not sure where you are landing on this. It’s only tragic or funny if you think satan is a real life now living entity. Total BS. And if you think so I could say you are smearing your saviors deeds in the muck.

Yea so you have asserted that Satan is not real on several post but you never really offer any reason for me to ignore what Jesus said so im gonna have to stick with Jesus. No offense.


@ PastorMark

“If hell is forever for his victims as well as he then there is no justice in the afterlife.”

You don’t need to refer to the holocaust for that fact, I think there are examples of murderers who became Christians in prison after they killed people that weren’t Christians themselves. Of course you might argue, Non-Christians deserve death anyways and they had their chance to repent but then you can’t use Hitler as argument against universalism.

BTW I believe that what happened in 70 AD might have been the judgement of Gehenna, without being a preterist, I don’t think that Gehenna and the lake of fire are the same. So Gehenna would be an earthly judgment and the lake of fire an eschatological and metaphysical judgment.

Its true that Hitler or the holocaust is not needed as a point. But non Universalists LOVE to use him to argue against. As revealed in my opening statement, this post is an rebuttal to the Oh so common meme, “Well what about Hitler?”

The term satan is accuser, and to go beyond that you will either believe God is in control or not. If God is in control, then there is no satan, in the context of what you and many think satan is, I believe that satan is the accuser, the part of us that just like Adam, wanted to be great.

It will be interesting to hear your response…

Ill pass. Just cant get in the mood to argue the obvious.

If it is so obvious it should be child’s play,This is where we get to the rub of what we believe and can verbalize. :thinking:

Maybe tomorrow. IM tired. We just wrapped up VBS.