The Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic position (and mine also)…is that heaven and hell are equally, being in the presence of God. Now “ hypothetically speaking ”, if I am “pure” - when I see God…I might see dancing angels around me…and if Chad is “impure”, when he sees God…he might see zombies from Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9).
Many of the Native American, Lakota visionaries…speak of experiences of the afterlife, akin to this Robin Williams movie:
I really enjoyed that Robin Williams movie.
Once again there is no Hell, and I say again ‘There is no Hell’
On this evangelical universalist web site I am proposing that there is no hell. Let’s see what everyone has to say…
It’s what disqualifies me from being a universalist Chad… that I reject Universalism’s hell; the same hell they and their opponents together believe in.
Bad news: there is a hell/Gehenna/Hades. It continues to this day as a POW camp for those who die in their unbelief, still captive to the devil.
Good news: hell and its occupants, along with death, will be thrown into the second death (Rev. 20:14, 1 Cor. 15:26, 55), the temporary, remedial lake of fire (as to it being temporary and remedial, see “For Further Consideration” at the end of this post)—and death will be put to death, and disappear. Those in the lake of fire will all eventually repent and surrender to Jesus because of the liberating and healing work of God’s fire of love; and one by one they will come out of it, and go through the open gates of the New Jerusalem to take the water of life freely being offered to them by the Holy Spirit and the Bride (Rev. 22:17).
Only a preterist, who does not believe in the futurity of the book of Revelation (or someone who does not believe in the reality of the devil and his ongoing, deluding influence), could suggest that there is no hell. Recently in another thread I laid out some key disagreements with preterism.
This must be from Hezekiah chapter 5 verse 13
Gehenna and Hades are TWO distinct and different things and not one and the same.
I think saying “there is no hell” and “hell is what one might experience, standing in the presence of God”…is a matter of semantics. Both really affirm, there is no literal place called hell.
Assume God is like baking soda. If water mixes with it… it’s a nice, stomach settling drink. If vinegar mixes with it, you get a volatile reaction.
Similarly, folks say people “sleep” after death. The Lakota and other shamanic visionaries, tell us differently. The spirits are all around us. Some eventually go to the “happy hunting grounds” or some likely facility, whatever that is.
And maybe…just maybe…those Brazilian churches and Native America Churches… taking peyote and/ or ayahuasca , during ceremony…might be seeing reality, as it really is…and the sacrament and/or medicine, is like a TV set…tuning to the right channel.
Sometimes a Holy Fool is like Curly Stooge…they appear to say or do things, that appear “off the wall”…but on closer examination…they might not be so “off the wall”, after all.
Just as an aside - what is the ‘holy’ in ‘holy fool’?
Clearly Dave it’s a typo and should read… ‘Wholly’
Check the link Holy Fool, for the answer…if it doesn’t satisfy you, I’ll try to find - an answer for you!
But think of it like this. If there’s anything “spiritual” about me, I disguise it. By pretending to be, a fool or idiot. Just like Detective Colombo…who is really extremely intelligent…pretends to be a moron, to throw his adversaries off guard.
Tongue in cheek, Randy, just joshin’ ya pal. I know and respect the office of holy fool!! There is an important function for HF’s.
It’s part of the Eastern Catholic (agreed to by the RC church, that sanctions EC teaching) / Eastern Orthodox traditions…that heaven and hell is equally, being in the presence of God.
It boils down to what Anglican New Testament scholar and bishop, NT Wright…talks about using abstract and concrete language…of course, NT Wright has a different perspective on hell…not entirely at odds, with the EO / EC conception…
The book of Revelation…is a prime example, of when concrete and abstract language - is being used…We get anything from the “Left Behind” series…to the zombies of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)…Yes, folks! I can find verses in Revelation, that can refer to them!
Yepper. how many walk down the sidewalk Christians have never in their wildest dreams been informed on what the word ‘hell’ means or where it comes from?
As far as I’m concerned, NOONE knows what happens to us after we leave our physical bodies. The writers of the Bible didn’t know either and if one interprets it to mean so, then I’d say he is misunderstanding the words. Of course there is hell ON EARTH, and the biblical authors are telling us about it so that we don’t make the same mistakes and end up there.
And hopefully…we won’t be singing this song then!
Only a preterist, who does not believe in the futurity of the book of Revelation (or someone who does not believe in the reality of the devil and his ongoing, deluding influence), could suggest that there is no hell.
Only a person who seems to have spent a considerable amount of time on this Evangelical Universalist forum and has been exposed to many different views but still has his or her hand in the crotch of evangelicalism would make such a stupid preposterous statement. You can believe what you believe, but the evidence is:
There is no Hell, and to double down… there is nor Devil/Satan/ person who rules your life.
God Gave us free will and expects us to use it in a manner beholding to HIM.
The Devil is us…
Yes, I agree.
True, I agree, first off, there is the understanding of the historical position, but it could be that the biblical authors are showing us we need to respond to those that are in trials… Those around us… our ministries so to speak. Do you agree?
MM, Yes. I agree.
I also agree with your statement here. To me, all the talk about some other- worldly evil being having control over our minds is superstitious nonsense.
The devil is not us: the devil is a fallen archangel, “the god of this age” (2 Cor. 4:4), who has the whole world under his control (1 John 5:19). And he’s not going away by vehement, unbiblical assertions: that deceiver is going away only when he is finally cast into the lake of fire, “where the beast and the false prophet are” (Rev. 20:10). Until then, we are to resist the devil (James 4:7), and to be alert and sober-minded about the danger he presents to each and every one of us (1 Peter 5:8)!
MM, I don’t know what you think “evangelicalism” is (let alone the crotch of it), or what forum you think you’re in; but from my observation, most people here at The Evangelical Universalist, are, fittingly, “evangelical” —‘who believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement; the need for a personal conversion or “born again” experience in receiving Jesus and his gift of salvation; the importance of evangelism; and the Bible as God’s revelation to humanity.’ (Wikipedia)