The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The impenetrable mystery of evil

Theology Philosophical
#1

I have been listening to Bob Dylan’s splendid new album *Tempest *a lot over the last few days. As usual with His Royal Bobness there are strong Christian themes, undertones to a number of the songs. Dylan is clearly a man who has struggled to make sense of the world from a Christian viewpoint, even though these days he refuses to be labelled with any particular faith label.

One song in particular - the glorious 14 minute title track about the sinking of the Titanic - includes some particulary poignant reflections on the nature of suffering and evil. Bob offers a semi-fictionalised ‘reimagining’ of the tragedy, in which 1600 men, women and children lost their lives. Towards the end of the song he sings this couplet:

They stood there on the landing and they tried to understand
But there is no understanding of the judgement of God’s hand

Now this seems to me to be a very profound observation. Much as we strive to understand why there is so much evil and suffering in the world, and come up with all sorts of theodicies to ‘get God off the hook’ of suffering, as it were, perhaps in the end we must simply admit that evil is indeed a mystery which *cannot *be understood.

The more I reflect on this, and listen to the song (which is fabulous), the more I am coming round to the view that the correct response to the problem of evil is simply to accept that it has no explanation, no understanding, at least as long as we inhabit this vale of tears. (Which doesn’t excuse us from our obligations to fight against it, of course.)

Would anyone agree? Or disagree?

Peace and love

Johnny

#2

from another perspective, the most help someone can be to someone who is suffering is to listen, to embrace, to support. giving pat answers, trying to make sense of the situation, etc…those things are not helpful at all.
if we can’t “understand” why someone is suffering, why do we think we can plumb the depths of evil? we are even cautioned against it by Tolkein (“It is perilous to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for good or for ill”) and Nietzsche (“He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”)
trying to understand why bad things happen seems to be a red herring in practice at least. wrestling with how to pick up the pieces and how to avoid doing harm to each other and protecting each other is a far better way of doing things.

i think that’s fairly supportive of what you’re suggesting, Johnny?

#3

I realized that more often than not when terrible tragedies occur in life many with a religious worldview will see that as some sort of punitive or chastising judgment of God. But in truth the judgement of God does not deliver us into the hands of evil, it delivers us from it. Judgement is what separates out from individuals, and the creation as a whole; all the darkness, nihilism and deranged psychopathy that is the irrationality of evil. Evil is not comprehended or explained it is dispelled from the creation by the in-filling of those dark places with the life of God through the death and resurrection of the Judge (Yeshua the liberator); who frees the cosmos by taking away the evil of the world, and as Healer not only heals the wounds and harm done by evil but reverses it through the universal resurrection of all things. The foolishness/madness of God is manifested on the cross by Jesus the Healer who overcomes the irrational, insanity of evil. The sunrise of God’s liberating justice is at hand, all the former things of darkness and evil will be forever dispelled from the creation–for that Son will never set.

Dave

#4

If God is bad, the only honorable thing to do is curse him and be thrown into hell.

If God is good, hell is where you’ll find him, doing all he can to rescue the perishing. Isn’t that what Christ did (and does).

Anyway, “bad God” is a contradiction in terms, like “dark light”. Evil isn’t real, no more than darkness is real. Darkness is the absence of something good (photons etc), not the presence of something bad.

“Overcome evil with good.” Fill the darkness with light. Darkness cannot be destroyed in any other way, precisely because it’s not real.

#5

Thank you James, Dave and Allan for your thoughts and observations.

I would agree wholeheartedly with what you say, James. I have spent far too much time pondering the ‘problem of evil’, trying to find a satisfactory theodicy, when I ought to have been *doing *what I can to help to combat or alleviate the effects of evil as I encounter them. I like the Nietzsche quote - ironic, considering how he ended up!

I guess that’s why I was so moved by Bob’s line about there being no understanding of God’s judgement, however you interpret that. When somebody I admire and respect, a wise and deep thinking believer like Bob, basically throws up his hands and says, I can’t get my head around this, I have to listen.

Dave, I think you’re right that God’s judgement isn’t punishment, it is deliverance. George MacDonald says something along those lines, somewhere I can’t place for the moment. Dylan seems to be growing ever more fire and brimstone apocalyptic in his old age, although there has long been an apocalyptic spectre haunting his songs - Desolation Row, When the Night Comes Falling from the Sky, Ring them Bells, to name but three.

It seems to me that Dylan does indeed subscribe to some sort of OT view of God’s judgement. But I could be wrong. And he’s got some way to go to catch up with Johnny Cash. Have you heard When the Man Comes Around? It’s brilliant, but it sure ain’t Universalism!!!

Allan, I like what you say about destroying darkness with light. I too believe that evil, while it is ‘real’ enough while we remain in this present darkness, will one day evaporate into nothingness forever, having served its inscrutable purpose within the mystery of God’s creation.

Love and peace to you all

Johnny

#6

I like Dylan’s songs ‘The Times Are A-Changing’, and ‘Knockin’ On Heaven’s Door’, and a few others… most would have to admit that he isn’t the greatest singer in the world, but he sure as heck is one of the world’s greatest songwriters :wink:

(Johnny, by the way, are you a fan of Simon and Garfunkel? Paul Simon is a great song-writer too, much like Dylan :slight_smile:)

And speaking of Johnny Cash, I’m a fan of his later music, which he did for American Recordings, which was mostly awesome covers of some great songs, like Redemption Day by Sheryl Crow, Redemption Song by Bob Marley, Bridge Over Troubled Water (by the aforementioned Simon and Garfunkel), One by U2, Hurt by Nine Inch Nails (beautiful and moving rendition, definitely check it out, you can find his heartfelt video for it here on YouTube: youtube.com/watch?v=o22eIJDtKho) and a number of others…
But he did do a couple originals during that time, including the classic The Man Comes Around, which you mentioned…
it’s a pretty bad-ass song, but you’re right, it sure ain’t Universalism :laughing:

But so as not to derail the original theme of this thread, as far as the topic at hand, I think I would fall on the side of throwing up my hands when it comes to the problem of suffering and evil… throwing up my hands both in cluelessness as to all the reasons why things are the way they are, but also in prayer… prayer for help in the face of such things…

Why God allows things to be as they are now I don’t know… but the faith that there is some meaningful reason why behind the curtain and the hope that things will not always be this way, that the day will come when there will be no more pain and no more tears and no more death, when we will all finally understand and be at peace and can say that the glory we know then eclipses any of the suffering or evil we know now, well… that’s at least something to hold on to, and keep us going…

And the knowledge that God is, in some mysterious way, with us in the midst of all of this, sharing in the struggles of individuals and nations, and truly cares about and understands His creation, and is at work among us and in us even now, can give us a little courage in the dark as well…

In other words, knowing that we can trust even though we don’t understand can help us to carry on in this crazy world in which we live. :slight_smile:

And, of course, seeking to do our part to make things better is always a good course of action. :wink:

Not sure if that really contributes much to the discussion, but that’s my two cents anyway. :wink:

Blessings to you Johnny :slight_smile:

Matt

#7

Your reply gave me an interesting thought. Cold is “real” to us when heat radiates away faster than replacement. Otherwise, we don’t “feel cold”. Perhaps evil is “real” to us when good radiates away faster than replacement. (Jesus often went off to a solitary place to “recharge”.)

Hmmm. Heat moves from hot to cold, from high energy concentration to low. Without cold, all the heat in the world can achieve nothing. (eg. a steam engine can work only if the boiler is hotter than the condenser.) Without a heat-sink, no work can be done. The cold provides a space into which energy can move. Perhaps goodness is similar? Perhaps we need a goodness-sink. Perhaps the vast regions of evil are actually necessary? It provides a space into which goodness can move.

This echoes Genesis, where the spirit of God hovers over the Deep (chaos, darkness, evil) before reaching in with creative power.

If we can show that evil is necessary to achieve a higher good that cannot be achieved in any other way, then God can be responsible for evil and still remain utterly righteous.

#8

Greetings

     As always this topic is really inscrutably challenging ...

    It is very obvious to me that I have no convincing explanation concerning evil in this World...
      Also there are too many attempts to do so as well... which depending on the Era in which these
     attempts or Theodicy had any effective influence ... or not ...

   Thus I will share of my own ideas ...  :wink: 

     Augustine and Pelagius ... Calvin and Arminius  and a host of other pairs who have seemingly opposing 
       views have struggled with this issue as well... especially in the area of so called "free will" contrasted
      with "God's sovereignity"   

      I have never been in the Calvinistic camp .. .nor am I fan of either of the two pairs of exceptionally
       well known Theologians above...   :wink: 

      Augustine lived within his Era and thereby developed his particular views ..  and so did the others..
      
      It is really fascinating to me to observe -- there is not much of a Theodicy in the NT text either...
       The focus is rather upon the inter-personal -- inter- connectedness between persons and 
     the relational sphere that engulfs God ( e.g. my Trinitarian perspective  ) with humanity 

      engulfs God with humanity -- I chose to put it this way to emphasize the relational sphere 
        not that anything, any concept or phenomena engulfs God  :wink: 

      Life consists of a gigantic huge Fabric of living existence that has countless quintillions of
     inter-connected threads of choices that are made by the myriad of humans that have lived 
     in the past & present thus creating a incredible Design of patterns ... which trigger & have
      ramifications which produce complex interwoven results 
            ( not the type of reap what is sown -- but rather "responses"
     which humanity will be involved in --  )  which affect further choices....

    Although over here there are culturally related concepts of "yuan fen" which really do not 
     match westernized versions of so called "fate or destiny"   -- yes most likely within traditional 
   culturally ideas it was translated to correspond with "fate or destiny" but in this Era 
      it is more flexible and dynamic rather than being a pre-destined fixed static phenomena ..
    thus I do not subscribe to Calvinistic ( Augustinian ) pre-destined events decreed by God ..

         

       Life Choices were made by Adam and Eve ( using the english names which 
       do not really appear until  the end of Genesis 3 ...which is a completely different
       ball game from earlier in Genesis 2 & 3 -- hebrew names were ish & issha )

       These Life Choices began the inscrutable Fabric of Design that initiated 
        the seemingly never ending "pattern" for the rest of History up until now ...
        and will continue on until the Grand Dance at the Eschaton ...

             just a intuitive spark in thought --  could it be that a person should rather focus 
        upon the relational and inter-personal aspects of God's mercy, GRACE, PATIENCE,
    TOLERANCE, et al...  (need to find some ideas from Miraslov Volf here ... )
         with humanity as it is displayed in the OT texts ...

        


     all the best !
#9

I guess I’m devil’s advocate, seems to me all good and evil can be reduced to the simple qualities true and false, from whence they spring. Thus, we can understand the essence and workings of good and evil as the wide variety of values we encounter in existence from this reduction, in somewhat the same way science is able to understand materialistic processes based on the fundamental structure of atomic (if not subatomic) reality.

The mystery is that understanding fundamentals only takes us to being lost in the complexities they lead to, which holds for spiritual and material realities. From this it seems that man’s will, to the degree it is corrupt, inserts corruptions into existence–which is essentially the traditional response of Christianity to the problem of evil. Despite the protests of non-believers, the idea that there exists good reason for God allowing evil into His creation–for example, introducing a necessary ‘pathogen’ into spiritual reality which will in time work a final complete resistance to evil in all souls, for example–is reasonable to accept and needs no further defense. Non believers hang much more weight on this argument than is justifiable imo.