The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Lake of Fire Defined???

Ever heard of Bert Gary? He has an interesting take on what the Lake of Fire is.

Revelation 4:6 and in front of the throne there is something like a sea of glass, like crystal.

He says the sea of glass is the same thing as the lake of fire. I’ve never heard that before, but when i read what he had to say about it, he explains it quite well. :slight_smile:

Please, check it out. Its very eye-opening… :open_mouth: …and in a good way! :stuck_out_tongue:

bertgary.blogspot.com/2009/01/la … fined.html

You believe him but not me? :laughing:

Well I guess he actually explains it instead of my one phrase answer in Shermans LOF dead sea thread

The whole book is temple symbolism, the LOF being no different. It was what priests used to wash themselves to enter the temple.

It was called the molten sea, mirrors were used to make the inside so it shone like a sea of glass.

I’m sorry… :laughing: :blush:
I may or may not have read your post in that thread. I dont think i gave that thread too much attention. :blush:
Bert Gary tho is referring to the sea of glass appearing like crystal… I didn’t see that as having anything to do with the dead sea. :confused:

totally kidding caroleem

i think it’s interesting that there are some really well thought out theories that explain the lake of fire as something totally different from a place of eternal torment.

not all the theories may be true, but while there are other ideas to investigate, it’s a shame people immediately leap on the nastiest theory of all. granted, the translation doesn’t help (unless John WAS being literal for a change), but i think it shows something sad about human nature that we seem to want the worst thing to be true.

i think the idea of a specific reference to a purification area or rite makes alot of sense.

Yes, I really liked the reference to the sea of crystal being the source for the symbolic bronze laver of the Temple used for purification. Wow! And I remember the fire in the sea of crystal and also that the torment would be in the presence of the Lamb, etc. But I had never put it together to equate the crystal sea with the LoF. How did I miss that?! It so totally fits!

And it works with my own image of the very presence of God BEING the hell, the torment for those who hate Him.

The best part, though, is that all these lakes are one, including the bronze laver – the place of purification before entering into the Temple. (The city needs no temple, for the Lamb is the Temple.) Gary doesn’t say, but I think they will all eventually be won over once the pride is finally conquered. Pride after all HAS to be (imo) the worst and foundational sin of all time.

the weird thing is that my mum was reading a Watchman Nee book, i forget the name, which went off on some tangent about sinners being tormented in the middle of the temple for all eternity. don’t forget your popcorn! :sunglasses:

but anyway, that’s clearly rubbish if it’s eternal and we’re all meant to be gleeful at their fate.

however, if, in His presence, we all undergo purification (which fits, as “when we see Him, we will be like Him” (1 John 3:2))

Hell or the lake of fire was never created to purify spirits. It was created to hold eternal criminals who are separated from God for eternity. :wink:

I was goin to say something :unamused: , but, I’m going to bite my tongue :frowning:

How are they separated from God? How is that possible? Please give me scripture?

Spiritual death is what separates a person from God before they are born again. If they physically die( which is the first death) without receiving this second birth they remain separated from God for eternity.The second death is spiritual death which is eternal separation from God spiritually. Rev 20:11-15.

Revival, I don’t quite understand this. You say all non-born-again people are spiritually dead (separated from God). This is your understanding of Original Sin I presume (I would agree). And then you say that the Second Death is eternal spiritual separation from God. But if you are already spiritually dead to begin with, why does it warrant the title Second Death? There seems to be nothing secondary about it if you’ve always been spiritually dead (separated from God) :confused:

There are 2 deaths. The first death is physical death. Everyone experiences this unless you will be alive at the second coming of Jesus. While you are alive this spiritual death can be temporary until you receive life from Jesus. But it is eternal if you die without receiving life. The second death is remaining in spiritual death that eternally separates you spiritually from God. Have you heard the saying “If you are born once you die twice” and “If you are born twice you die once”? Those who do not receive the second birth (born again spiritually) remain in their spiritual death separation and experience the eternal second death recorded in Rev 20:11-15.

I’m still not following. How can remaining in spiritual death be considered another death? It’s a continued state. Death (and Second) implies a new state. You can only die if you were once alive. But someone who has never been spiritually alive cannot spiritually die – they’re already dead :confused:

Exactly. If one is already spiritual dead and separated from God, how can they become spirituality dead again and separated from God again? Makes no sense.

Also, where are they going to hide from God from all eternity? Oh wait, but in Revelation 14:10 it says, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone** in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.**

Looks to me like they ARE in the presence of the Lord. Not OUT of His presence like Revival says. If God is everywhere and if He created everything, then how could anybody ever actually be separated from His presence?..and for all eternity at that! :confused:

That’s easy!- It’s because God makes you alive again temporarily so that he can throw you into the lake of fire where you can die spiritually (whilst being alive eternally so you can experience it - or it would just seem like annihilation wouldn’t it?).

Simples!

:wink:

Yep yep.

Mal 3: 1“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts. 2“But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. 3**“He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness. **

Pro 17:3 The crucible is for refining silver and the furnace is for gold, likewise the Lord tests hearts.

Isaiah 6:5 (Good News Translation)

5 I said, “There is no hope for me! I am doomed because every word that passes my lips is sinful, and I live among a people whose every word is sinful. And yet, with my own eyes I have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

6 Then one of the creatures flew down to me, carrying a burning coal that he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs.

7 He touched my lips with the burning coal and said, “This has touched your lips, and now your guilt is gone, and your sins are forgiven.”

Those are very good scriptures redhotmagma and JeffA. :smiley:

The burning coal isn’t a literal piece of coal…and neither is the lake of fire a literal fire. :slight_smile:
For He is like a refiner’s fire. :slight_smile:

Worth keeping in mind that the sons of Levi weren’t doing so well being loyal to God at the time of Malachi’s prophecy; didn’t do so well during the time of Christ’s first coming (and certainly weren’t purified at that time); and will certainly have lost their (eonian!) right to be servants of God (as sons of Levi per se) at the time of the Second Coming.

So yeah, they’ll need some purification and refinement, so that they may present offerings in righteousness to YHWH. :slight_smile: