The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Loneliness of the Long-Distance Heretic

I’m sure the situation is familiar.

On the one hand you’re surrounded by people who, because of your Christian religious beliefs, think you’re an irrational moron; a brainwashed and psychologically weak believer in fairy stories with a hidden guilt complex or father fixation or something.

And on the other you’re surrounded by people who, because or your non-mainstream beliefs, think you’re a heretical false teacher, corrupter of morals, and boat-rocking pretend-Christian fool.

sigh

It often sucks to be a heretic … :slight_smile:

So, other than all round hugs and commiserations, lets name the religious beliefs that get you into trouble?

I’m an evolutionist
and an open theist
a cosmic warfare theodicist
I reject as useless the terms ‘inerrent’ and ‘infallible’
a dogmatic universalist
an inclusivist
I largely reject the penal substitionary theory of atonement
I hold to conditional prophecy
I’m a preterist
lean towards amillenialism
and mysticism
and, to be really awkward, I lean towards gender complimentarianism

Oh dear!

Or to put it another way, “If both sides hate you, you’re probably right.”

:laughing: Pog, I don’t even know what half of those things are, but I THINK I agree with you on some of them and disagree on others. :wink:

But I am definitely a mystic (if that means God talks to me and I “hear” Him. That’s not a problem in my group.)

I no longer believe scripture to be inerrant, though I DO believe scripture as a whole can give us a wonderful picture of Jesus (which is to say, a picture of our Father, of whom Jesus is the express image.) I haven’t told anybody that yet. It would definitely be a problem for some of them.

I guess I’m a partial preterist. The last time I looked up those terms, I seem to remember that one applying to me more than the others. I never can keep it in my head what they all mean. I don’t think I’m an amillenialist though. (Again, going on memory here. It’s amazing how I can NOT remember those things.) It doesn’t make sense to me. There has (in my mind) to be a transition from one age to the next. Amillenialism, it seems to me, doesn’t actually leave room for a literal resurrection, but maybe I’m mistaken about that.

I am beginning to think that perhaps God did create His creatures via evolution. On a theological basis, this just seems to be the way He works with us – the way He typically does things. A step at a time He builds and develops us.

The main reason I find rather rather incredible, though, is that on a scientific plane I don’t see how evolution could work. (Rather the opposite approach to most people, and I’m not in fact much of a scientist.) On the other hand, God could make evolution work – provide the constant input of energy to the planet’s engines, put together the right “hopeful monsters” at the right moments. Without His input, no I do not believe in evolution. I simply do not think it could ever happen. In MY group, sympathy for evolution would put me a bit on the outs, though I did manage to persuade one of the ladies that her Christ-following uncle was not going to hell simply because he believes in evolution. She was very concerned for him (as I suspect she also is for me).

I’m not an open theist, but I still love you. :wink:

I’m with you on the universal doggies – mine are laying here by me on the rug and they’re so cute. I know Papa will never damn them to fiery torments or chuck them on the dung heap even when they’re bad. He made them. He loves them. Or even if He doesn’t, I love them, and He loves ME, so He HAS to keep them. :wink:

Oh yeah . . . You might get a chuckle out of this: My sister-in-law is a bit impatient with what she believes to be “Christianity” and she has a bumper sticker on her Audi: “My Karma Just Ran Over Your Dogma.” Very offensive, but also quite funny. We don’t talk religion when we get together, which alas isn’t often enough.

Is a cosmic warfare theodicist someone who believes in the existence of a personal devil at war with God, and that’s the reason so many bad things happen? If so, I’m with you on that one. (I know some of the folks here will roll their eyes, but I’m sure they’ll do it lovingly.) :wink:

I’m not sure what an inclusivist is; I thought if you believe that all the humans, and even the devil, even the doggies and the pet snakes and so on will be reconciled to the Father, that was pretty inclusive . . . ? Or is that what you mean? But isn’t that pretty much the logical extension of universalism?

Rejecting Penal Sub would be a hard bump with my group. They’re a reasonable bunch, most of them, but I’d be afraid that the moment I mentioned my problems with it, walls would unconsciously go up and nothing I said afterward would even be heard. Alarms would be ringing in the ears and it’s hard to hear over all that racket. So I just slip in the occasional (scriptural) picture of a BETTER atonement theory. When enough of these pictures have been built up to create a sufficient stile, then they will maybe find their way over the barbed wire fence of PS. :wink: Asking them to crawl through it might be a bridge too far.


I agree that prophecy is sometimes conditional, as in Jonah’s prophecies of doom to Nineveh. BUT I also think that some prophecy is simply God saying, “I wouldn’t have to do all these things if you would change, however I know that you’re not going to change, and this is what’s going to happen: ____ ______ __ _________.” It’s not that it’s set in concrete; it’s just that this is what’s going to happen, but He will fix it all for good in the long run. That doesn’t mean that on a micro level our own actions can’t make a difference. You’re right; they can and we SHOULD work for peace and good will. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons (uihos/huios seekfind.net/Uihos.html ) of God. On a macro level, though, I do think that God knows what’s going down. But again, I still love you even if you ARE wrong. :wink:

As for the gender complementarianism, I’m not entirely sure what that means. I probably agree with you, and that wouldn’t cause any trouble in my group but I’m hesitant to talk about it in some company and even perhaps THIS company. :wink: Maybe that would be a good reason to do a thread on it. :laughing:

Blessings, Cindy

Thanks you two :slight_smile:

You know Cindy, based on what you say, I think the only thing we pretty much disagree on would be the open theism … but the cool thing is that I reckon we could agree to disagree without any major problems.

So often it isn’t like that … :frowning:

Oh dear indeed Pog. You should be burnt at the stake immediately.

And I shall be writhing in the flames with you.

:wink:

Seriously mate, I sympathise warmly. I too feel like a stranger in a strange land sometimes. I do think it’s a lot harder for us Brits than for our American friends. As Alastair Campbell once remarked, in a slightly narrower context, “we don’t do God”; and we give far too much respect - and air time - to smug, ignorant proselytising fundamentalist atheists like Richard Dawkins and Ricky Gervais.

Indeed, God is a pretty dirty word among the overwhelming majority of people in my circle of acquaintance - including my oldest and closest friends. I’m quite a nostalgic person, who is still very close to a group of old school pals. Those of them who aren’t proselytising atheists themselves are certainly not very receptive to Christianity, in any of its manifestations. But being a natural rebel and an inveterate non-joiner, I’m kind of proud of my unfashionable theistic beliefs.

The heretic moniker troubles me not one whit. If being a heretic means rejecting the self righteous exclusivism of much traditional Christian dogma - particularly the Calvinist variety - then build my gallows high :smiley: .

As for your very interesting personal credo, my response would be:

evolution - big tick - creationism is palpable and witless nonsense; ID simply bad science
open theism - small tick - I believe God is outside of time, and that He ‘sees’ the future as it happens in the future
cosmic warfare theodicy - if by this you mean that Satan and his minions are to blame for the world’s evils then no, have to disagree here; I see Satan as a metaphor for human evil
biblical inerrancy - big tick - see creationism above
dogmatic universalism - big tick
inclusivism - big tick
rejection of PSA - in the classical formulation, big tick (Christ’s atoning death and resurrection have both penal and substitutionary qualities - but in no way was God punishing Christ instead of punishing us for sin)
conditional prophecy - guess I’m agnostic on this one
preterism - tick
amillenialism - tick, see creationism and biblical inerrancy above
mysticism - surprisingly, yes
gender complementarianism - sorry old bean, can’t sign up to anything endorsed by the dreaded Driscoll!!!

To which I would add a few heresies of my own:

original sin - nope, don’t believe in that, in strict terms; babies are a blank canvas, but with the in-built potential (due to their genetic inheritance) to go wonky - Larkin was right, it’s us grown ups who screw them up, in the main
virgin birth - ditto; surely the most dispensable bit of orthodoxy?
the sinner’s prayer - mumbo jumbo; as if muttering a brief incantation could possibly change one’s eternal destiny …
slaying in the spirit - mass hysteria, nothing more
prosperity gospel - bleeaarrgghhh

I’ll stop now, I’m just ranting … :smiley:

All the best

Johnny

Always cathartic to have a littel rant … :slight_smile:

Yeah, the UK can be tough sometimes for religious folks. Much better than some places, though …