The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Lucifer Myth

Theology Biblical Theology
#181

AISI it’s obviously all a part of the intended life/death cycle God created. Just as good and evil, just as righteousness and sin and just as light and darkness is. Some young earthers actually think that after the fall tigers grew big flesh tearing teeth all the sudden and snakes became venomous overnight and that sort of thing. It really is sort of on topic as you say because some will claim God made a world all ‘good’ (which would exclude deadly venom) just as some cannot accept an opposer/adversary created to act as such.

James Goetz wrote an interesting article on theistic evolution here:
theoperspectives.blogspot.com/20 … stian.html

#182

Scripture says that all that God made (or re-made) in the six days of Genesis was “very good.”

That doesn’t mean perfect, but it does raise some interesting questions for the deniers of free will (who believe that God instantaneously created a sinful devil to suit His purpose.)

If God’s purpose included sinful men to redeem, and He can instantaneously create moral character, what did He need a devil for?

Why didn’t He just instantaneously create a sinful man?

Why was Adam created in a state of innocence?

Why was he not simply created bad (and in need of mercy, if God just wanted creatures to have mercy on)?

Why did God want this new king of creation (who He placed over the animal kingdom) to make a choice?

Did anything change when he made that choice (and did the rules governing the animal kingdom perhaps revert back to what they had become before the creation of man)?

Also: Why would God not want Satan to make a choice, create him as an opposer, and then judge him for serving his purpose (read Rev. 20:10)?

Is it not at least possible that Satan was once a celestial overseer, that he led others into sin, and that this caused what A. E. Knoch referred to as “The Disruption”?

Couldn’t The Holy Spirit have alluded to this when He inspired the Apostle Paul to say that a Christian Overseer “must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil” (1 Tim. 3:6)???

Any thoughts?

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#183

Whether venom existed before some sort of fall on man’s part, the question remains, who created venom?

#184

Who would you say created thorns and thistles?

**And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. ** (Gen. 3:17-19.)

#185

So do you believe God created venom as part of some overarching curse on nature?

#186

Adam’s sin certainly altered nature (if the ground was cursed, and this curse effected plant life on earth)–don’t you think?

#187

Yes, many thoughts on this. But we agreed to disagree, remember? :question: You pretty much have just laid out the traditional view all over again. :blush:

#188

You mean before you posted the comments I was replying to in the above?

Yes, I remember.

You mean the traditional view held by universalists like George MacDonald, Andrew Jukes, Sergei Bulgakov, and Gregory of Nyssa?

BTW: Do you accept the traditional view of the virgin birth?

And (if the ground was cursed, and subsequently brought forth thorns and thistles) would you agree that Adam’s sin had an effect on nature?

#189

Yes, before I responded to someone else’s post. I thought “agree to disagree” meant that you wished to cease from discussing this subject with me. Did I misunderstand?

#190

You made a point that you thought disproved a belief I’ve been defending here, did you expect me not to respond?

Did Adam’s sin have any effect on nature?

Was there any change in the plant life on earth?

Were Adam and Eve not commissioned to rule over the animal kingdom?

Does the scripture not say that you make yourself the slave of whom you yield yourself to obey, and did they not yield themselves to a voice other than God’s.

Does the Bible not say that Satan is “the prince of the power of the air,” and the god of this world"?

Does it not say that all creation was made subject to corruption?

If you thought I wished to cease from discussing this subject with you, why did you tell me of your many unstated thoughts (which I hope aren’t just the same opinions and interpretations you’ve been restating and reposting since you started this thread), and then remind me that we had “agreed to disagree”?

If you want to drop the subject I will–but if I see my belief in a personal devil (who at some point after his creation began sinning and fell into judgment) challenged, or ridiculed, I’ll respond (when I can, and if I have the time–and sometimes maybe even when I don’t really have the time.)

#191

dbl post :blush:

#192

Okay - I really don’t get the reason for the “agree to disagree” thing then. So I’ll just act as though it wasn’t said or agreed upon.

I like viewpoints which oppose mine as they help me see all sides even clearer - so anyone being a satan (opposer) to my viewpoint is a blessing.

So let’s continue.

Okay but keep in mind that among those “very good” things was a tree which contained the knowledge of evil. :bulb:

Of course it doesn’t mean “perfect” as biblically “perfect” means “complete” as in Heb. 10:1 -
teleÑw

to make perfect, complete

  1. to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end

to complete (perfect)

  1. add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full
  2. to be found perfect

to bring to the end (goal) proposed

The bible says Adam was NOT deceived. He purposefully chose a path that led to where we are today. How is that “innocent” (by your definition) and why would you believe in such innocence in the first place?

The problem with your questions is that you see God as separate from creation. And you (perhaps) believe that tigers grew big teeth overnight and turned evil? I guess is possible, but plausible?

Where does God want satan (which means OPPOSER BTW :astonished: ) to choose something? I am not familiar with that passage.

God is never “disrupted”. That (again) borders on blasphemy! All I know about A.E. Knock is that he has a concordant literal bible or something. Which is way cool. :wink:

Pride is opposed to humility and Godliness. It is worthy to be judged as such. If you are in league with the spirit which opposes the tree of life, you will live under the expulsion from paradise.

I think, therefore I sin! :smiley:

Seriously though - if God needs eons to have people choose good moral character through free will then why ask them to put on a new man who is CREATED in righteousness and true holiness? (EPH) “And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness”.

#193

And you see God and creation as one?

Are you a pantheist?

Are we God?

Less plausible than plant life sudenly mutating?

The question was why God would want Adam to sin by choice, and simply wind Satan up like a toy soldier (instead of wanting him to make a choice)?

Do you have any thoughts on that Byron (or any new thoughts at all)?

True.

And the passage I quoted says this is the same judgment that the devil fell into (which might also imply that God wanted him to make some choices at some time.)

Well if you have a King James Bible, look up any New Testament passage that speaks of “the foundation of the world,” and then look up the same passage in the Concordant Literal New Testament.

You’ll find that A.E. Knoch’s “Way Cool” Concodant Bible reads “the disruption of the world,” so I guess Knoch and I are blasphemers (even though I don’t recall saying that God was disrupted, I don’t believe He was taken by suprise, and I’m sure Knoch didn’t mean his translation to imply either.)

Why would He ask them to put this new man on if good moral character can be created in an instant (without their co-operation)?

BTW: Are you familiar with an interpretation of the parable of the sheep and the goats (where Jesus says Gehenna was created for the devil and his angels) that takes the sheep to be scattered Jews (or Jewish believers), the goats to be unsympathetic gentile nations, and the devil (or advarsary) to be an anti-semetic “advarsarial nation” (or Empire)?

That was an idea popularized by A.E. Knoch (and I’ve seen variations on it), but I’ve never seen anyone explain who the angels (or messengers) are.

Any thoughts on that Byron?

Could they be anti-semetic nations–but that’s the goats (and/or the devil) isn’t it?

Here’s a thought.

Maybe the devil is the advarsary who tempted Jesus in the desert (and who Paul used as an example of falling into judgment in 1 Tim. 3:6), and maybe his angels are the demons he’s said to be king of.

Is that a thought, or is that just too “traditional” to possibly be true?

#194

Jesus based panENtheist, to be exact. And finding it difficult (at times) to communicate with those who are still trapped in the matrix (including those who see God and all creation as separate).

Possibly.

Well, I’m not surprised that there is no passage (as I thought). You see - there is no scriptural evidence whatsoever that the ‘satan’ was required to make a choice. Because if a righteous choice was ever made by ‘him’ then ‘he’ wouldn’t exist (or he would just have to be renamed nonsatan). :wink:

If your very name MEANS adversary and if all who act adversely to righteousness are under your control - you might ask yourself how this person free-willed himself into such a position of power.

I have no idea. I assumed it had something to do with the “Lucifer is satan” myth and a supposed rebellion in God’s domain by His chief of worship (who was beautifully crafted with living percussion and wind instruments installed in his body) when he got a big head one day (and with a bod like that - who wouldn’t??? :smiling_imp: ) and brilliantly decided he wanted to kick God out and take His place. Of course, THAT didn’t work out too well (DUH!) and God would have none of that foolishness so the magnificent Cherub named “Helel son of Shachar” was sent to earth to help mankind see the dark too - by speaking through (or possessing or becoming) a reptile of some sort (ever heard of the reptilians? Neat stuff: orgoneblasters.com/).

Then (of course) the rest of God’s holy messengers who had already decided to skip out and go on this crazy trip with Luci (although unmentioned in scripture) were sent to earth too! As spirits of deafness, infirmity, and lying spirits etc.! Or, some say they mated with earth girls and when the bad angel/human hybrids died in the flood the spirits of dead Nephilim became the demons later (problem with that theory is the - what did the flood accomplish? In that scenario it made things even worse. Picture Nephilim speaking to humans : "Now I am with you- but I shall be in you! evil laugh " :open_mouth:

In fact, that theory aside it’s no wonder the human race went down so fast with so few humans for the demons to tempt/possess. I mean - 8 people??? There must have been a vast dark swarm of unemployed demons (all their clients died!) following the ark around just WAITING to pounce!

But, of course. if Mr. Knoch was referring to something else - then I will retract my blasphemy charge. :wink:

The new man is the Last Adam. There are really only two forms of humans you know. And being transformed slowly (from human perspective) by metamorphosis is just the way things are. My will has nothing to do with what God starts and finishes. I thought you adhered to this concept? “who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”.

I’ve heard just the opposite: Of the Jews: “They please not God and are contrary to all men”.

This thread is not to debunk a spirit devil or king of devils. Except that Canaanite lord Beelzebub of flies probably is not the real devil person.