WOW - you should be drinking to something - it’s your 365th post meaning the next will start a new year of posting.
Yes, and let’s remember that there are a lot of dead people walking around.
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found… (Luke 15:24.)
But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. (1 Tim. 5:6.)
Also–Saul was destroyed when Saint Paul was born (on the road to Damascus.)
I would only add that if God has foreknowledge, He knew how it would play out in advance.
Bravo James!
Bravo to “I don’t know”? What kind of congratulations is that? 
I’ve never been congratulated for not knowing something. 
I have been congratulated for being humble enough to admit I didn’t know something. Is that what you meant?
A formerly good angel (who decided to become a lying spirit) I guess (after it repents of being a lying spirit and chooses to be non-rebellious again after being twisted and tormented in agony to show it the error of it’s ways - and then reconciled) would be transformed back into a good angel, right? Under the view you guys hold - what else could happen after reconciliation?
But in these passages:
Jud 9:23 -
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
1Sa 16:14 -
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 -
And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1Sa 16:16 -
Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
1Sa 16:23 -
And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
1Sa 18:10 -
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul’s hand.
1Sa 19:9 -
And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.
It says plainly that these spirits are sent FROM God.
So - if (in your view) these are just free-willed ‘fallen’ entities rebelling against God - what guarantee would God have that the lying spirit would say what it was supposed to say in the first place? Perfectly obedient rebels? Or (which seems to be your view) God foreknew what the lying spirit was going to say and it just happened to be exactly what God wanted it to say for the occasion?
That’s quite a stretch people…
If God didn’t foreknow our thoughts and actions, there’d be no such thing as prophecy, and it’s not at all a stretch for those of us who believe in the foreknowledge of God.
And, again I say “Bravo” to James, who’s answer showed the siliness of a question like “what does a lying spirit do after it’s reconciled to God”?
What did Rabbi Saul (the persecuter of the Church, who was a murderer and a blasphemer) do after he saw himself for what he was?
He became Saint Paul (“the least of all the Apostles.”)
And yet I think we misunderstand prophecy if we only view it in the sense of foretelling of future events. What is “future” from the perspective of God? Time is only a phenomenon relative to the observer.
Physics tells us that even an object moving at the speed of light, from its own perspective would pass through all points simultaneously. There would be no “time” from the perspective of that object. The perception of time would only occur with observers external to that object.
My point was that what we call “the past, the present, and the future” are all an open book to God.
The fact that He knows what will will think, do, and say before we do (and can use such things to accomplish His purposes) says nothing for or against freewill.
What was your point?
lol 
Paul was a human being both before and after, so AISI the analogy doesn’t work. Like I said, spirits of infirmity or deafness etc. don’t seem to fit the definition of free-willed persons.
They don’t seem to fit that definition to you.
From everything I read in scripture (the personal conversations that Jesus and the sons of Sceva had with them, their fear of a coming time of judgement, their recognition of Christ’s divine authority, their recognition of the sons of Sceva as lacking in that authority) they do seem to fit that definition to me (human opinions to the contrary aside.)
But in first Kings 22:22 "‘By what means?’ the LORD asked. "‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’”
So you think this was a good person gone bad and that it will be judged for the lie even though God said “Go and do it” ?
Will Judas be judged for betraying Christ?
Jesus said “that which you must do, do quickly.”
Apparently he judged himself so, no.
Now - back to God consorting with (supposed) fallen angels to do His bidding:
19 And the LORD said, "Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, "I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, "In what way?’ 21 So he said, "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, “You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ 22 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”
In the above verses, a ‘spirit’ volunteers for a holy mission (to lie) and is sent by God to do it. And now your saying the heroic spirit will be punished in some way? For lying?
Apparently he judged himself so, no.
Now - back to God consorting with (supposed) fallen angels to do His bidding:
19 And the LORD said, "Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, "I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, "In what way?’ 21 So he said, "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, “You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ 22 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”
In the above verses, a ‘spirit’ volunteers for a holy mission (to lie) and is sent by God to do it. And now your saying the heroic spirit will be punished in some way? For lying?
Why the double post?
Anyway, God’s instruments often have impure motives of their own–and it’s not at all uncommon for God to punish them.
"Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation…When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes…(Isa.10:5,12.)
And what about the chief preists, who offered the final Passover Lamb (The Lamb of God, Who taketh away the sins of the world)?
They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. (Acts 4:28.)
Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. (John 14:47-52.)
Will Caiaphas (and these other “instruments of God”) not be judged (because they were “on a holy mission”)?
My point is that God has the foreknowledge to use creatures to accomplish His purpose, and He nevertheless can (and does) judge them for their own individual motives.
Whatever questions or issues may be raised by this, none are avoided by a theory that explains the devil and his demons as non-entities.
I see no scriptural support for such a theory, and every reason to believe that they are fallen creatures (like we ourselves are.)
I also believe Paul, when he says:
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:9-11.)
In my examples evil spirits and lying spirits are sent from God to do God’s bidding. The lying spirit is even in on the heavenly planning stage. I still don’t see how your human examples equate.
Remember, we still have no evidence of God’s spirit messengers ever failing to accomplish their task.
If you want to call Micaiah’s vision a planning session, fine.
Judas was “in on” some planning sessions
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother…and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matt. 10:1-2,4-7.)
Judas was in on that planning session, and participated in that mission, but…
Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (John 6:64.)
On the night he betrayed Christ, he was even told
That thou doest, do quickly. (John 13:27.)
But that didn’t excuse him.
And though his betrayal was foreknown, and served God’s purpose, it didn’t earn him any reward
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12.)
And
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.( Matt. 26::24.)
( BTW: I’ve offered a universalist interpretation of that last passage in an online artical I wrote called “What About Judas?” )
Once again–my point is that God has the foreknowledge to use creatures to accomplish His purpose, and He nevertheless can (and does) judge them for their own individual motives.
Whatever questions or issues this may raise (concerning freewill, the Sovereignty of God, and the interaction between the two), none are avoided by a theory that explains the devil and his demons as non-entities.
I don’t personally see any reason to go through the mental gymnastics and scriptural contortions that are necessary to maintain such a theory, and (when I look at scripture) I see every very reason to believe that the devil and his demons are fallen creatures (like we ourselves are.)
I therefore find myself in agreement with what Gregory of Nyssa (a Universalist Church Father) said a long time ago:
We certainly believe, both because of the prevailing opinion, and still more of Scripture teaching, that there exists another world of beings besides, divested of such bodies as ours are, who are opposed to that which is good and are capable of hurting the lives of men, having by an act of will lapsed from the nobler view, and by this revolt from goodness personified in themselves the contrary principle; and this world is what, some say, the Apostle adds to the number of the “things under the earth,” signifying in that passage that when evil shall have been some day annihilated in the long revolutions of the ages, nothing shall be left outside the world of goodness, but that even from those evil spirits shall rise in harmony the confession of Christ’s Lordship.
(On the Soul and the Resurrection)
Can we agree to disagree here?
Yes, we can. Thanks for taking the time to make your points. I always learn a lot from these discussions.
G-d Bless.
Hey,
Followed along this thread for a bit, and I have a question that somewhat pertains: where did venom come from? Snake, spider, scorpion, fish, etc.? There are two “types”, one is for predatory use, the other defensive against predators.
Did God create venom? If not, how did it originate?
If one believes all animals were created vegetarians, then this to me seems to pose an interesting question. Digestive systems is another one along this same line. Did animals immediately start eating each other after some “fall”, as if a magic spell was cast that transformed biology? Or did it happen as a result of millions of years of evolution, which to me is no less of a magic act, just one that takes longer.
Any thoughts?
Have you read “The Problem of Pain,” by C.S. Lewis?
He has a whole chapter on “Animal Pain,” and he discusses some of the same issues you raise here.
I don’t have a copy right now (so I can’t provide a direct quote), but I can give you the gist (and since Jason is somewhat of an expert on Lewis, he can correct me if I’m wrong):
Lewis felt that little is revealed about pre-Adamic history because we have little direct need to know, but he accepted the tradition of Satan’s fall (which he felt had at least some scriptural support.)
From here he reasoned that death, decay, and predation could have entered creation because of sin–LONG before Adam sinned.
He was (like me) an old earth creationist.
I should note that he probably leaned more to the “long day”/ “progressive creation” (or Theistic evolution) model than the gap-theory (which I prefer), **but the two are not mutually exclussive (**and I myself suspect that evolutionary processes ocurred on the pre-Adamic earth.)
Anyway, his modern speculation coincides with a post-Apostolic tradition attributed to Papias (who’s said to have sat at the feet of the Apostle John.)
Papias thus speaks, word for word: To some of them [angels] He gave dominion over the arrangement of the world, and He commissioned them to exercise their dominion well. And he says, immediately after this: but it happened that their arrangement came to nothing. ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-43.htm
P.S. As a universalist (who believes that God is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-wise), I don’t believe the fall (of men or angels) took God by suprise.
I believe it was factored into His plan from the beginning.