“What they learned in Church” was obviously a jab at the modern church and I explained what I was objecting to. The things I write must be seen in the bigger context as well. 
Hi Byron,
Now that I’ve spent a significant amount of time trying to figure out your approach to the Bible in regards to heavenly angels and demons, may I now ask about your actual beliefs about heavenly angels and demons?
Yes, and thank you James and all discussers here for the conversation.
First of all - in the realm of static eternity there is perfect harmony and no wars or rebellions. All the people/personalities and powers/forces presently at work (or perceived to be at work) in this universe (defining universe here as all spiritual, emotional and physical aspects of this existence in time) live and move and have their being within the Creator and exist as a subset of the Creator.
So right off the bat the very idea of the Creator in eternity being likened to a man sitting in a chair while his servants around him become envious and conspire to overthrow Him is almost blasphemous in it’s ignorance, much as worshiping a rock or tree shows an ignorance to the true nature of God.
Now, as far as what IS happening here in the realm of time (spiritually, emotionally and physically - which would include heavenly angels and demons) I do believe there is a conflict between light and darkness/good and evil. As to nature of evil spirits and spiritual wickedness, I believe they only have power through ignorance (darkness).
Since Jesus has “destroyed him who had the power of death, that is - the devil” then naturally I have a lot of questions for folks who take a one size fits all approach to ‘Satan’ and ‘the devil’ and define him as a single entity.
I do not think what we believe about satan/evil spirits is nearly as important as knowing the ‘truth’ about the nature of reality (whatever that may be). I think the biblical teachings on love and sacrifice are spot on and they help us understand how to become free from the grasp of pride/selfishness etc. BUT I see the Lucifer doctrine and the supposed massive war raging in God’s eternal realm as ignorant concepts which give rise to superstitions and non-productive world views and perpetuates a kind of dark-age mentality. However I do not dismiss offhand the Biblical teachings about reality - but take many accounts more as metaphors than literal descriptions of reality.
I always acknowledge that I could be wrong on details and am not set in stone with my views EXCEPT what I understand about God’s supreme nature in eternity. I acknowledge the conflict/war in LOWER states of reality (lower ‘heavens’ or lower levels of tangible/intangible governing powers), but totally reject the concept of conflict in God’s absolute domain.
Having no ties to orthodoxy and no obligation to Bible inerrancy allows one to look at things more objectively (AISI) including being able to look at biblical text and openly question things which don’t seem to add up. My beliefs are a work in progress James and if I can clearly see there are people living inside of people and they’re all just God’s lost sheep then I will accept the idea - I am not closed. To me, closed = stagnant. I see you folks here as being somewhat open so that’s a good thing.
I’m curious about the OT evil/wicked (Ra) spirit from God thing. Any thoughts on that?
Please Sir! (raises hand)…
I always have a problem with eternity - in a static eternity how does anything happen? 
It doesn’t. 
That’s what lower realms are for!
Yes, I saw your other post about that over on some other thread. Only from our perspective in time does anything ‘happen’.
You are just have trouble thinking 12th dimensionally 
Thank goodness for that! I thought perhaps it was just the indigestion again 
Hi Byron,
In this post, I’ll outline my view without yet directly comparing it to your view because I want to get something out on the floor before I finely sift your view.
The Trinity always existed in loving harmony before the creation of space-time and freewill spiritual agents. God created everything good. No spiritual agent could ever perceive God apart from God appearing in a theophany. The theophany and the spiritual agents lived together.
Some of the spiritual agents sinned and started to rebel against God. We know little about this rebellion while we can make deductions: the leader of the rebellion is now called “the devil”; the devil rebelled before he appeared to and tempted the first humans; the devil became what Jesus calls “the prince of this world” and what Paul calls “the god of this world”; the devil likes to appear as God.
We’re unsure about the following: we don’t know how long the creature now called “the devil” existed before he first sinned (but we know he had already sinned before he entered the Garden of Eden); we don’t know when the devil’s angels/demons started to sin.
Maybe this needs to be another thread? Maybe in philosophy?
BTW, when you said "the creature now called “the devil” reminded me of “the artist formerly known as Prince”. Maybe there is a connection?
Hi Byron, Here is Part Two to my reply. And if the first part were to begin a new thread, then “Biblical Theology” would be the correct the forum. This is merely a summary of basic Christian orthodoxy theology.
Christian orthodoxy teaches that no human or angel can see God apart from God revealing himself in a theophany. Likewise, any vision of God seen by angels and humans is a theophany.
Are you implying that learning the right knowledge disables all spiritual forces of evil?
What Bible verse and what translation of the Bible are you referencing?
I agree with you on this.
I’m not sure what you mean by “people living inside of people and they’re all just God’s lost sheep”.
I unsure what you’re referencing. For example, are you asking about God’s ultimate control of the satan in Job?
I was thinking we could discuss the nature of God outside the confines of orthodoxy.
Yep. To whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Absolutely. I’m not sure the terms ‘learning’ and ‘right’ knowledge’ apply though. More like God knowledge revealed. Darkness cannot operate in the light.
Heb. 2:14
Destroyed
katargeÑw
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Katargeo
- to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1. to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
2. to deprive of force, influence, power - to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
- to cease, to pass away, be done away
- to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
- to terminate all intercourse with one
A main argument here against my premises is that demons are just good spiritual persons (persons by definition = people) who made some bad choices and are having to work through that.
I was referring back to this post:
Hi Byron,
I discuss the nature of God with people from various religious/nonreligious backgrounds. If you want to quote and challenge that post in another thread, then you may.
Hebrews 2:14 teaches that the death of Christ rendered the devil powerless over believers. The caveat is that believers may forfeit their authority over the devil and demons through unrepentant sin (Ephesians 4:25-8). Both ignorance and willful disobedience can lead to the forfeiture. I see no discontinuity in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation about the devil. I see progressive revelation, but no discontinuity.
That sounds like a straw man definition to me. For example, I believe God made all spirits with a good character while some spirits made a terrible decision that corrupted their nature. This is similar to God making the first [humans] with a good character while they made a terrible decision that corrupted their nature.
I see this is similar to the Lord calling Nebuchadnezzar “my servant” in Jeremiah (25:9, 27:6, 43:10). Nebuchadnezzar was a wicked king while the Lord sent Nebuchadnezzar to punish the less wicked Kingdom of Judah. And Nebuchadnezzar was a prefiguration of the eighth king in Revelation. Also, Nebuchadnezzar eventually repented. Anyway, the Bible teaches that the Lord sometimes sends both evil humans and evil spirits for testing or judgment such as the Lord sending Satan to tempt David to take a census.
Okie Dokie
It says He had to become like us in all ways in order to destroy him who ‘had’ the power of death.
Probably because you haven’t met any non-human people yet?
Yes, he had to send an adversary. It would be unfortunate though (for God) if His evil emissaries repented on the way to do their dirty jobs and instead of following through returned saying “Sorry Lord, I just can’t do this anymore - I’ve turned over a new leaf”.
I mean what does a ‘lying spirit’ do when it starts telling the truth? Retirement?
Hi Byron,
Yes, the devil no longer has the power of death over believers.
No, that’s not the reason that your definition sounds like a straw man definition.
If that had happened, then God would have executed his judgment in another way.
I don’t know all of the details of what will happen after Christ reconciles all things to himself.
Well, looks like I was wrong on all this:
youtube.com/watch?v=1ZtY7368 … re=related
There’s the proof!!!
I believe! I believe!
Well… I believe this holds the record for the longest thread on the forum 
Actually on a serious note - while hopping from one video to another from the link, I came across one of an Indian or Pakistani baby that was born with 2 complete faces on it’s head. I wish I hadn’t as it was heartbreaking but that kind of thing is hard to square with a theistic worldview (and no I’m not going to post the link).
I hear ya’ Jeff. I would say the majority of atheism is a result of those kinds of observations. At least it’s the most common reason I’ve personally been approached with.
It squares for me perfectly Jeff as it was initially revealed to me that this is all a ‘belly of sheol’ experience (as in Jonah 2:2). If you read that chapter metaphorically it lays out the condition we find ourselves in. Add to this an understanding of pan-en-theism then you understand that God is suffering in and with the child you mentioned. Add to this an understanding that the sufferings (any and all suffering experience by any and all) are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed in mankind and you have a basic idea of what I’ve seen from the Father. Of course, I don’t have the power (AFAIK) to make this ‘come alive’ to those I share it with.
The whole mess can be compared to birth pangs leading to a next level of existence.
Still doesn’t mean I like it - especially in light of things like the vid you saw - and even more in light of our empathetic giftings, but I’m stuck with those things for now.
I actually have several friends (long time believers) who have turned to agnosticism and even atheism for (apparently) similar reasons as you have - so it is important to me to try and impart the knowledge I have. And BTW - these are EXACTLY the reasons why I became extremely atheistic and cynical (as a youth) toward any concept of a creator who was ‘good’ who created this hell-hole.
My lowest (pre-Christ) point came with a situation here in the states where a couple of low lifes kidnapped, abused and murdered a bunch of young boys (late 60’s/early 70’s). Hearing some details and having that empathy gift - I really thought I was going to physically die under the horror of that story and in fact became suicidal. It all came out when one killer ended up killing the other killer- which led to a call to the police when the man confessed to his mom that he killed his fellow. IIRC - at least a dozen bodies of missing boys were dug up.
More recently I saw a story about a boy whose muscle tissue turns to bone and if surgically removed it just comes back. Eventually it will become like an internal straight jacket, a living coffin and he will not be able to move. Me, being a bit claustrophobic, was horrified and simply shut the tv off - though now (years later) I still think of him and pray for him.
So yes, I am challenged from time to time to not accept that it’s all for a purpose - just random crap happening - but I MUST be willing to face it all and deal with it all and so far my faith that a perfect God of love and mercy is the almighty creator and that he is NOT separated from creation at all - but is literally and intrinsically a part of creation, has remained intact.
BTW, if you haven’t studied panentheism - it is basically an understanding that although God transcends creation he is also imminent IN creation (not to be confused with pantheism which holds that God IS creation).
You will see this theme throughout my extensive posting here and it is fairly consistent even though I do deviate from some of the precepts in order to converse biblically and explore new ideas. I’m always willing to question and learn.
I am **EVEN WILLING to question whether my entire experience with God was a phenomenal powerful illusion that my mind created **- but it is very far fetched to accept that since my depression and atheism all disappeared instantly in an explosion of light/love and then I received all these spiritual gifts, insights, dreams etc and the anointing on my life was confirmed in public (an external witness - VERY important for establishing the verity of an experience).
Love and peace to you Jeff…
- Byron
Hi Byron,
I very much appreciate your reply. I suppose the main difference between us is that I have never had any ‘felt’ experirnce in any way similar to yours (of the love of God) and believe me I have prayed for it almost violently at certain times in my life (though not recently of course).
I am left at the moment with the feeling that conditions like those in that video are best explained by chance and genetics.
Jeff.
And I believe your observations are true on one level. Also worthy of note is that the facts of reality don’t bear out orthodoxy’s claim that those who embrace the ‘atonement’ are exempted from or entitled to all the supposed literal manifestations of God’s ‘interactive’ wrath/blessings. There is a randomness which adds to the apparent futility of everything, right?
That’s because Jesus on the cross is actually a picture of the futility of mankind which we are discussing - and the resurrection is a picture of the next phase I’m speaking of.
I’ll drink to that!