The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Myth of Penal Substitution

I agree there. Especially when I present my theory…that the Zombie Apocalypse…is the most probable, end-times tribulation scenario.

I am a futurist, and I do not believe that. Jews have a special position or purpose before God—nor does Israel. There is one Israel now that includes all of Christ’s disciples whether Jew or Gentile.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

Yes Jews and Gentiles still exist. Male and female still exist. But God does not have a special dealing with Jews that He does not have with non-Jews. Nor does He have a special place or purpose with men that He does not have with women.

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And yet, Paul did make a point about hardness in Israel, which made a ‘spot’ for the Gentiles to come into the fold; and then the promise that all Israel (the same Israel?) would be brought in as well.

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So to you, what does that mean?

Exactly! It says, "In this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.”

In what way was that? The previous verses state that God broke of some branches of the Olive Tree (Israel)—those who did not accept the Messiah that God sent, and who refused to be His disciples. But God also “grafted in” to the Olive Tree the Gentiles who became disciples of God’s Son—the Messiah. In this way, by taking out the unbelieving Jews, and grafting in the believing Gentiles, the entire “Olive Tree” consisted in true believers—followers of the Messiah. The “Olive Tree” was still Israel, but ALL of this Israel was now saved. If you and I are true Christians—disciples of God’s Anointed One, the Messiah, then we are true Israelites.

In this purification—cutting off some branches and grafting in others, “the Deliverer came from Zion and banished ungodliness from Jacob.”

What happened to the unbelieving Jews?

I’m not sure what you’re asking. I will say only that they were no longer part of Israel, the Israel that God purified. Oh, on earth they doubtless were part of what was called “Israel.” Today there is an entire nation of Israel, but they are “man-made” Israel, and God has no special promises for them just because they are called “Israel.”.

The only “Israel” that God recognizes is the true Israel—those who have accepted the Messiah that He has sent. It is they who comprise the purified “Olive Tree.”

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Okay, I see what you’re saying.

He is the means of mercy concerning our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1John 2:2)

God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son that whoever entrusts himself to Him should not perish but have lasting life. (John 3:16)

Verses such as the above declare pretty strongly that God intended all along to save the whole world. And that will come about when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is his Lord.

Paul is also extremely clear on the one plan of God…

Eph 3:3-6 …how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,…

The promises to Abraham were for the entire earth to be blessed; this was before the giving of the Law to the Israelites. Paul is I think clear on that much. Israel was chosen, elect, not because of their intrinsic ‘specialness’, but to become a blessing for the entire Earth.

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It depends on whom you ask.

I don’t think God is un-generous; or that He grudgingly allows in the Gentiles. It was His plan all along, and the way he chose to do it, according to Paul, was His prerogative as far as I’m concerned.

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And you think that based solely on your one understanding of one verse?? What’s wrong with considering Paul’s further words to the Ephesians — surely they’re fairly clear? Even in the OT there is provision after provision for those outside Israel to join her ranks in blessing.