So what if there was no ‘fall’? What if the idea was a position during a time and during a belief that was totally conditional upon the ideas and understandings of the said time and belief structure, so maybe we can look at it as a different can of worms and not hold the ancient theologians in some sort of worship. 
I don’t know the answer to that, Don.
But the claim he makes, he seems to back up with a (to me) very plausible argument concerning the doctrine of Original Sin.
This below in essence is the nub of the pantelist position… the elect are no end in or of themselves, but rather… God’s means to God’s ends, i.e., that which secured ALL under His mercy — the part (remnant-elect-firstfruits) sanctifying the whole (harvest).
David Bentley Hart:
As for the believing “remnant” of Israel (11:5), they are elected not as the number of the “saved,” but as the earnest through which all of Israel will be saved (11:26), the part that makes the totality holy (11:16). And, again, the providential ellipticality of election’s course vastly widens its embrace: For now, part of Israel is hardened, but only until the “full entirety” (pleroma) of the Gentiles enter in; they have not been allowed to stumble only to fall, however, and if their failure now enriches the world, how much more so will their own “full entirety” (pleroma); temporarily rejected for “the world’s reconciliation,” they will undergo a restoration that will be a “resurrection from the dead” (11:11–12, 15).
I was thinking something like that when I read it - thanks for the confirmation. This is really good stuff.
Gotta say Dave, these quotes from Enns are pretty good too…
2. Augustine—and those who have followed him—do not seem to understand that when Paul refers to “works” he is referring to the Law of Moses and not to a general “human effort to please God” or some such thing.
Why am I getting all into this? Because ((Paul’s central concern in Romans isn’t “Here’s how you go to heaven.” And thus the entire “works vs. faith” model many Christians work with and assume is as clear as the sun at noon is right off the table.
If you get “works” wrong in Romans, you get the whole book wrong. It feeds into the notion that Romans is a “salvation” tract, which is a reading where “original sin” plays a central role.
3. The third issue I have with an Augustinian inspired reading of Romans is the notion that election is personal rather than corporate.
Yeah - I’m convinced he’s on the money there.
NT Wright makes many of the same points in his Romans commentary.
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“All Israel will be saved” is a widely misunderstood concept. Mr. Hart seems to be among those who misunderstand—but I may be misunderstanding him. By looking at these two verses out of context, the second of which is mistranslated, one could arrive at the false conclusion that all of national Israel will be saved:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. (Romans 11 NKJV)
It appears from verse 26 beginning with the words “and so,” that “all Israel will be saved” is sort of an afterthought—something that happens after the blindness mentioned in verse 25 goes away.
But now let’s really examine the whole passage with the first words of verse 26 correctly translated:
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11 ESV)
God purified Israel! He wanted a chosen people who would do His will, and “continue in His kindness.” Israel is represented in this passage as an olive tree. God “broke off” some of the branches, that is, those in Israel who did not “continue in His kindness” but who went their own way. Then God “grafted in” branches from a wild olive shoot, that is, non-Israelites—gentiles who became disciples of His Son. This is how He purified Israel. This is the way in which ALL ISRAEL would be saved!—when it consisted of only God’s people.
But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:14-16 ESV)
For mine… Hart is on the money where the elect are the means whereby historic Israel of the old covenant, i.e., the people of God, aka Jesus’… “his people” of Mt 1:21 are purified. Paul makes this very clear, and quoting some actual passages from the context that Hart references demonstrates this…
Rom 11:1-2a I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
This above IS historic Israel of the old covenant… this is NOT a reference to new covenant believers. God is faithful to His covenant word and promise.
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
Again… Paul’s “they” IS none other than historic Israel of the old covenant, provoked to jealousy by Gentile inclusion into Israel’s “spiritual things” as per Rom 15:27; 9:3-5.
Hart’s point that the elect are the earnest or firstfruit portion that sanctifies (purifies) the whole is borne out further by Paul’s continued words here…
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
The firstfruit was Jesus from the same lump, i.e., historic Israel of the old covenant. Likewise, the root was Abraham and the branches the 12 tribes (context). We know “the same lump” refers to historic Israel BECAUSE Paul already references such in Rom 9:21 whereby in God’s will certain one were apportioned as ‘vessels of honour’ OR ‘dishonour’ — mercy or wrath. BOTH played their part in the redemption, i.e., the saving of Israel, ALL Israel. Thus did Paul further write…
Rom 11:26-27 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
Historic Israel of the old covenant was promised covenant renewal, i.e., resurrection, as per Ezek 37:1-14 — note in particular verses 13-14 along with Ezek 36:26-27 and Jer 31:31-33.
This then is HOW Paul’s unifying factors of those few elect and those few hardened in part worked together, whereby historic Israel’s FULL redemption wrought reconciliation ON BEHALF OF all humanity…
It IS a completed story — reality!
Given you are aware of DP’s prêterist position on this perhaps you can elaborate his position further for us.
I have read your post carefully, Davo, and if “all Isael” refers to historic Israel, I cannot find in your post a clear answer to the question:
“In what sense will all Israel be saved?”
Will this occur sometime in the future?
Well Preston is right in that it is definitely eschatological, for sure… I think he misses the boat however in ignoring the work of the firstfruits remnant “in Christ” who secured ON BEHALF OF ALL, i.e., the redemption of all Israel when He turned away of the ungodliness of Jacob, aka… when He took away their sins. THAT was the reality of the Cross—Parousia event!
It was as I pointed out above to qaz… the redemption of all Israel occurred when He turned away of the ungodliness of Jacob, aka… when He took away their sins (vss.26-27). THAT was the reality of the Cross—Parousia event! It was yet in their future, coming to fruition in the AD70 parousia.
In their ignorant and disobedient unbelief historic Israel became enemies of the gospel BUT were STILL nonetheless loved of God BECAUSE OF their election (Ex 19:5-6; Deut 7:8; 10:15) and the subsequent promises having been made to the fathers (Rom 11:28).
And I personally cannot wait to see that come into full fruition, when Christ returns.
And when you die and quite possibly figure out that what you thought… was not what God had in mind… are you going to chastise God because he didn’t let you know what was happening though many gave you alternatives to your view? 
I’ll stand with that revealed word and feel confident about that.
I’ll roll with that brother.
If we were heads of state, we could get stuff done, because we work with one another. Love ya.
So all of national Israel had their sins taken away by Jesus through His death on the cross? Then why would God send judgment upon them via the Romans in A.D. 70? God doesn’t send judgment upon righteous people, does He?
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As an evangelical universalist, I believe all humanity has already been reconciled to God through the cross (2 Cor. 5:19, Eph. 2:16, Col. 1:20). However, with the exception of those individuals who have been born again, all people, including the Jews, are still slaves to sin, and must individually repent and be born again in order to avoid hell-Hades-Gehenna, and the subsequent remedial (but terrible) lake of fire.
We futurists believe there will be a future regathering and national restoration of Israel, and (eventually) a coming repentance of the Jews, en masse, at the future-to-us bodily return of Christ.
Hence, this passage from Romans 11—
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
—has to do with the yet-future physical Parousia of Christ, a.k.a., The Second Coming of Christ, and the repentance of the regathered Jews.
At the one and only, physical, Second Coming of Christ, the repentance of regathered Israel, as a group, upon recognizing Jesus, their messiah and savior, is prophesied by Zechariah (c. 520 BC):
12:9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.
And here is a description by Zechariah of the subsequent “Millennial Age,” when Christ reigns from Jerusalem:
14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
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That’s a logical question to which I’ll give a twofold answer: firstly posing a question using your own argument and position as advanced elsewhere on the forum, and then secondly using my position.
1) Would you agree it possible for anyone who has been declared… “the righteousness of God in Him” to indeed experience the wrath of God in terms of chastisement… just as any loving father might correct his son no matter how severe that might seem in the moment?
2) The bible is replete with examples of where God’s people have suffered the consequences of their actions in very tangible ways EVEN THOUGH being His redeemed people. With regards to historic Israel when it came to “remedial justice” under the old covent we find the following…
Psa 99:8 O LORD our God; You were to them God-Who-Forgives, THOUGH You took vengeance on their deeds.
Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off forever. THOUGH He causes grief, YET He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.
So it was, there were times of punishment involving the outworking of temporal consequences in accord their faithless temporal actions i.e., their errant deeds had real time consequences in this life where Israel’s temporal pain was the fruit of their trespasses — thus their judgment.
Isa 54:8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; BUT with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.
Isa 60:10b For in My wrath I struck you, BUT in My favor I have had mercy on you.
Jer 10:24 O LORD, correct me, BUT with justice; NOT in Your anger, lest You bring me to nothing.
These last two verses show the TRUE nature, goal and resolve of divine justice to be RESTORATIVE and NOT a carte blanche unrelenting wrath. God’s “justice” was met fully in Christ at Calvary, met fully in LOVE once for all.
So, with regards to the devastation of AD70 Jesus came as Israel’s prophet in the love of God forewarning His people of the impending doom about to come upon that old covenant system — it had served its purpose and was growing old and ready for extinction (Heb 8:13; 2Cor 3:11). Anyone choosing to hang onto to the vestiges of that which God in that transitional age AD30—70 was rolling up would unfortunately be rolled up with it… hence Jesus’ prophetic words of warning accordingly — many indeed fell foul under their own malediction when the chickens came home to roost at the close of that 40yr biblical generation…
Mt 27:25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
As I have argued elsewhere, the Bible shows progressive revelation regarding the true nature of God. Old Testament saints were almost completely uninformed about Satan, and misattributed to God the destructions of the devil.
I no longer believe God is the one who sends prophesied destruction, as commonly believed, but that He exclusively tries to warn about danger in advance, and also to provide the way of rescue. In other words, God is genuinely a heroic fireman, humbly offering His life in order to save people; He is not bipolar: both warning, and destroying, both fireman and arsonist. I have argued that any perception of bipolarity in God comes from melding Him with Satan. That God is a unipolar, loving Daddy, who only gives life; the devil is a unipolar death dealer.
Deuteronomy 28, again and again, describes how the Lord will torture, oppress and joyfully destroy us, our families and our nation if we stop listening to God. The Lord will send “enemies” to enslave us, “wonderful plagues” to afflict us, and “famines” to cause us to become cannibals who eat our own children. I am just scratching the surface here. It gets worse, much worse. But the point is this– Satan is the one doing the plaguing, destroying and evil rejoicing here, not God.
The New Testament couldn’t be any clearer that all these curses of Deuteronomy 28 are the areas where Satan rules in his wrath, “wrath” which Revelation 12:12 says is “great” against the “inhabiters of the earth.” The Old Testament saints used the word “Lord” because they thought that the destroying force at work here was under God’s direct and obedient command. Bottom line: a New Testament reading should retranslate the word “Lord” here to read “Satan.” The wonderful blessings in the first fourteen verses should remain as clearly coming from Jesus, for that is the essence of His nature as a blesser, protector, and healer. All references after this describe the devil’s work, not God’s, so they must be properly assigned to Satan. (From SATAN: Old Testament Servant Angel or New Testament Cosmic Rebel?)