The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Myth of Penal Substitution

Theology General Theology
#147

From what I understand, Christianity( the ways of Jesus) WAS the way of the old Hebrews- Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc. The Jewish/ Levitical law came into being later. Jesus was following the ways of the original fathers.

Davo, you said:
Anyway, consider this example… God was Israel’s Redeemer, i.e., all Israel — the good, the bad and the ugly in toto — was redeemed out of Egypt by God; this was a corporate event, i.e., Israel to the last man was unilaterally redeemed / rescued. However… in time only those of faith (faithfulness) realised more fully given benefits associated with that redemption in terms of the peace of the land of Promise — thus Yahweh was the Saviour of all Israel… especially of those who believed.

I disagree. The good, bad and the ugly were not redeemed out of Egypt. Those redeemed had to first believe that Moses was sent by I AM ( God) and then follow him, being baptized in the cloud (the Spirit) and in the sea( the “water” of life). These were the same requirements as those of Jesus’ day. The coming out of Egypt was a so called “Parousia”, There have been many “parousias” before Jesus’ time -ex. Noah and the flood, the fall of Sodom and Gomorrah, the fall of the Tower of Babel,- and such times will continue to be because tyranny and evil still exist in other forms, but they are the same things.

#148

Well, I imagine I’m back in the days of Jesus. And I’m hanging out with him. Now I’m a Samaritan or a Greek. And I hang around him. Much like those who hang around motorcycle gangs. And I hear him talking to crowds, as I wander about with him. And I travel where he goes. When he speaks to the crowds (Jewish, Greek, Samaritan, zombie, etc.)…how do I know, whom he is speaking to? Perhaps I’m as dense as a zombie.

Just thinking out loud here.

#149

You disagree… unsurprising. If you consider the evidence legit then the good the bad and the ugly WERE in fact redeemed out of Egypt (as the OT testifies too numerously elsewhere that you ignore as well) BECAUSE they all believed… as is evidenced by the FACT that they ALL followed Moses out… Q.E.D., God redeemed ALL His children out of bondage.

That many dropped in the desert in disobedience (1Cor 10:5) only proves the value of perseverance (Col 1:23; Heb 10:39) in gaining that which was promised — their lack of faithfulness only robbed them of their reward, i.e., peace, NOT their redemption.

#150

Davo, I believe redemption is a cooperating effort between both man and God.

#151

Just a footnote here. That’s also the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic position. And Paidion’s as well, from what I understand. Although if LCC shares more details, her position might deviate from them.

“Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt.”-- Eunice Shriver

#152

Davo, you said:
You disagree… unsurprising. If you consider the evidence legit then the good the bad and the ugly WERE in fact redeemed out of Egypt (as the OT testifies too numerously elsewhere that you ignore as well) BECAUSE they all believed… as is evidenced by the FACT that they ALL followed Moses out… Q.E.D., God redeemed ALL His children out of bondage.

That many dropped in the desert in disobedience (1Cor 10:5) only proves the value of perseverance (Col 1:23; Heb 10:39) in gaining that which was promised — their lack of faithfulness only robbed them of their reward, i.e., peace, NOT their redemption

My response:
Yes, their redemption was dependent on the fact that they believed and obeyed the voice of God as spoken through Moses. These people oftentimes returned to captivity due to their lack of faithfulness.

#154

Well…somehow this theory of atonement is not offensive as is the penal substitution or satisfaction theory, that affirms that Jesus died in our place to appease the wrath of an angry God, who was thereby satisfied, for somebody had to pay for our sins or else we would have to pay by suffering in hell forever.

As I understand the Christus Victor theory of atonement, Jesus had to die in order to defeat the powers of evil. I cannot accept that as the reason for the death of the Son of God, because:

  1. The powers of evil appear to be continuing to operate just as strongly in the world since Jesus’ death (or even more so) than they were prior to His death.

  2. The Scriptural reasons for Jesus death do not include defeating the powers of evil.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Peter wrote these words AFTER Jesus’ death and resurrection. If the devil had been defeated, how could he still have been so active in the world?

Here are the reasons given in the New Testament for Jesus’ death:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.

It seems clear from the above passages that Jesus died to deliver us from sin—from doing those things which harm other people or ourselves.

I don’t know whether my “theory of atonement” totally fits any of the theories found in theology books. But I think it is closest to “The Ethical Theory” as expressed by Edgar Young Mullins, D.D,LL.D. in his book “The Christian Religion In Its Doctrinal Expression” 1917.
Dr. Mullins summed up the ethical nature of the atonement in its end and purpose as follows:

(1) It is God’s method of bestowing forgiveness or remission of sins.
(2) It is God’s method of producing righteous men and women.
(3) It is God’s means of creating a holy society.
(4) It is God’s way of producing a holy society in which Fatherhood and sonship shall be the supreme expression the relationship between God and man.

I don’t think (1) to be included in the purpose of the atonement, but I do agree that (2) and (3) are included—and possibly (4),

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#156

I think this is the same guy.

#157

But Paidion, defeating the powers of evil was clearly one reason for his death. Hebrews 2 says that Jesus has broken (defeated, destroyed) the power of Satan by his death at the cross:

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. Hebrews 2:14-15.

Question: exactly what powerful, authoritative weapon did Satan officially lose at the cross? Answer: dogma! When the enemy’s added-on “dogma of curses” was nailed to that cross, the Devil was left disarmed:

Having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness [Gr. DOGMA], which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, NAILING it to the cross. And having DISARMED the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Colossians 2:14-15.

The god of this age indeed continues to blind people with his lies and accusations. Nevertheless, the devil was in fact disarmed at the cross, when his authority to provide the consequences of dogma was nailed to it. Now we Christians are to tell people that the dogma (the legalistic embellishments and threats mistakenly added to God’s communications by Moses, and various others) was not from God: from God is only a free invitation to abundant life.

Dogma: “the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment” (See Thayer’s Greek Lexicon) Again: NAILED TO THE CROSS, THEREBY DISARMING MALICIOUS POWERS AND AUTHORITIES.

Satan is the legalist, not God. The devil condemns people, adding his own cruel embellishments to the law of sowing and reaping. However, given that he has been disarmed, he now no longer technically has the authority to carry out his consequences to his threatening rules. And now, thankfully, the greater truths of grace (getting good we don’t deserve) and mercy (not getting bad we do deserve) through the cross, have even triumphed over the lesser truth of the law of sowing and reaping. UNFORTUNATELY people are ignorant of the available benefits of this victory, and allow themselves to continue to be victimized and defrauded by the devil.

Paidion, we who believe in a literal devil can obviously see that he is still quite active, above and beyond the evil done by fallen man. But apparently (given the truth of Hebrews 2:14-15 above–that ‘the powers and authorities’ WERE disarmed), nowadays Satan is successfully utilizing man’s authority, no longer having any of his own.

We could wish that Satan would already be completely out of the picture, but it would seem his eviction is only one part of a very long, drawn out process:

Mt. 13:30
"Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Lk. 13:20-21
And again he said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened.”

Revelation 12:10
The accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

So, why is this process long and drawn out? Why do we not yet see all things in subjection to Jesus? Because of the fact of angelic and human free will in this classroom–and we are slow students. Even we Christians ourselves are ignorantly ‘neglecting our so great a salvation’!! As Richard Murray said in his free ebook, God vs. Evil:

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which at the first began to be
spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; . . . Thou hast
put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him,
he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we SEE NOT YET all things put under
him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of
death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death
for every man.” Heb 2:3, 8-9.

This passage is clear that all things have ALREADY been put under Jesus, but we don’t
yet SEE them put under Jesus. The reason? Because of our individual and corporate
“neglect” of “so great a salvation.” Both Satan and Evil have no gasoline left in their tank
because Jesus drained it all away at the Cross. They are functioning today solely off of
the fumes of our neglect of Jesus’ great salvation. What makes this salvation so great is
its “always already” aspect.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convince us of the accomplished benefits of this
great salvation. “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is
of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” 1 Cor 2:12.
But, our fight is always one of faith, effectual and fervent faith which steadfastly cleaves
to the Lord’s reports of pre-victory.

Do All Events Work Together for the Good of God's People?
#158

That is an interesting point of view, Hermano. It’s the first time I ever heard anyone say that Satan’s dogma was destroyed by Christ’s death.

#159

Especially when said “enemy” and satan really turns out to be Yahweh’s trusted prophet Moses… well at least as per Hermano’s assessment:

I have yet to find ANY NT text that says Christians are to tell people what Moses declared to Israel was false. The REAL problem for Israel was… Israel looked to Law observance for righteousness; something the Law could never provide, even though they strained the gnat to make it so.

#160

Ohh Baby…:roll_eyes:

#161

And I have yet to find any NT text that says Christians are to stone disrespectful sons (as Moses said God commanded) or to cut off the hands of women and show them no mercy, if they defended their husbands by grabbing the testicles of the husband’s attackers.

#162

Yep Chad… gotta agree.

#163

But Don. don’t you see that this is the story of Israel? Of course, and obviously you don’t see it this way but for others I would say that the story of Israel as God’s people is something worth researching. :wink:

When we start to think of God as a creator of ALL MEN and quit thinking of him as the sender of Jesus to search for those willing to ask him into their heart, we will begin to offer understanding and love.

Kind of brutal, but true. :smiley: Though the grabbing the testicles of the husband’s attackers was quite, um… I just have to say that some of my bluntness has been paled by your bringing forth of law.

#164

I have no idea what you’re trying to tell me. For example, what do you mean by …“some of my bluntness has been paled by your bringing forth of law.”

#165

Jesus was the ambassador to the Israelites. You will not recognize that Jesus came for the Israelites.
Mat_10:6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat_15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Mar_12:29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Luk_1:16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God,

Luk_2:34 And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is opposed

#166

But NOT JUST for them, comprende?

#167

you’re not getting the jist… It is what it was, and we can spin it however we want which is what evangelicals do every day, but God sent Christ to his people.

Well bro, show me where I am wrong?

#168

Spin?
Of course God sent his son to to His people - but surely (Shirley?) you would not want to go further and say he was sent ONLY for the Jews? Or would you, and if so, why?