The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Myth of Penal Substitution

What is your evidence that I do not recognize this?

Please, you got to be kidding, go up about 4 posts.

Good luck and peace.

Spin? Show me where I am wrong. You are taking an evangelical view of what Christ was and did, and that is okay, just don’t say that I am out of context.
:smile:

I didn’t mention context.
STOP already calling me evangelical-viewed. Pleeeeeeze. I haven’t lived 140 yrs (feels like some days) to be labeled. Thank you!
And I reckon we’ve been through this topic before, so I’m gonna have some pie and hit the hay!
Love ya bro.

You continue to banter against the label, but in essence, we are saying the same things.

So what if he was only sent for the Jews? Lets figure this out and go backwards and see what God said to ABRAHAM,

Happy hunting.

This dog don’t hunt…

Hunting is the only way to find food.

I go to the supermarket.

1 Like

I believe he came for everyone. Including any zombies, from the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse.

The Law of Moses is described as ‘a ministry that brought death and condemnation, which was engraved in letters on stone.’ 2 Cor. 3:7, 9. And we know that death is an enemy of God, and a tool of Satan (1 Cor. 15:26, Heb. 2:14).

It is difficult for a unipolar [Tree of Life] God to be correctly interpreted through fallen, bipolar [Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil] people. I would say that the many things Moses wrote and did, reveal competing inspirations: God, Moses himself, and occasionally Satan. (Please consider this Richard Murray article.)

Not “only” to the Jews, but “first” to the Jews—

Rom. 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Gen. 22:18
Through your seed all nations on earth will be blessed.

I’ve gone up 12 posts and found nothing. Please quote my words and explain why you think they indicate that I “do not recognize that Jesus came for the Israelites.”

He said Himself, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24)

I don’t recall a time when I ever believed otherwise. However, His apostles (especially Paul) extended the message of salvation from sin, to the non-Israelites, so that they, also, could repent and be delivered from sin by the enabling grace of God.

:smile::laughing::smiley:

Thanks

Hermano, You said:
The Law of Moses is described as ‘a ministry that brought death and condemnation, which was engraved in letters on stone.’ 2 Cor. 3:7, 9. And we know that death is an enemy of God, and a tool of Satan (1 Cor. 15:26, Heb. 2:14)

My response: Moses was a true prophet of God. From what I understand the Law of Moses is the Ten Commandments and are the only Laws that were given to him. They are included in Jesus’ ministry as well, and we are commanded to follow them.

Exodus 31:18 “And when He made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone written with the finger of God.”

Exodus 32:15-16 " And Moses turned and went down from the mountain, and the two tablets of of the Testimony were in his hand. The tablets were written on both sides; on the one side and on the other they were written. Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets."

Exodus 5:22 These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the midst of the fire, the cloud and the thick darkness, with a loud voice, and He added no more. and He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me."

Exodus 34:28 'And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

Deut 10:4-5 “And He wrote on the tablets according to the first writing, the Ten Commandments, which the Lord had spoken to you from the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly; and the Lord gave them to me. Then I turned and came down from the mountain , and put the tablets in the ark which I had made and there they are just as the Lord commanded me.”

Moses also explains in Deut. 10:12-22, that the keeping of the Law requires a circumcised heart that loves God and loves the stranger as himself.

Breaking the Ten Commandments does cause death. Lying, stealing, or killing one another most certainly does not bring life.

I agree that there are contradictions. Obviously, Moses is not promoting an “eye for an eye” and then saying “Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself.” (Lev 19:18) I would say that the eye for an eye clause came from the false pen of the false scribe that Jeremiah speaks of.

This fits into the mix as well:

Very good, Dave. An excellent Biblical scholar (with a PhD)…commenting on another article or observation, by an Eastern Orthodox theologian…and being very favorable to the original scholar’s insights (which is typical Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic - by the way). And BOTH sharing a disdain for Calvinism (but to different degrees, mind you). Once in a while, you find a gem in theology or philosophy.

I checked out the link to DB Hart that Enns provided. Excellent.

From said Link…

“Not that Paul’s argument there is difficult to follow. What preoccupies him is the agonizing mystery that the Messiah has come, yet so few of the house of Israel have accepted him, while so many Gentiles—outside the covenant—have. What then of God’s faithfulness to his promises? It is not an abstract question regarding who is “saved” and who “damned”: By the end of chapter 11, the former category proves to be vastly larger than that of the “elect,” or the “called,” while the latter category makes no appearance at all. It is a concrete question concerning Israel and the Church. And ultimately Paul arrives at an answer drawn, ingeniously, from the logic of election in Hebrew Scripture.”

That is interesting :thinking:

What do you mean by Death?

I am not so sure about that.

Why should two different Greek words “epi” and “hos” (in English characters) be translated as “because”? The words are put in the dative case, and thus become "eph’ " and “hō”
They literally mean “upon whom.” How so many modern translators arrived at “because,” I guess I’ll never know.

In any case, the following translations have the two words rendered as “because”:
BBE, EMTV, ESV, HCSB, LEB, NASB, NHEB, NIV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, and Williams.

The following translation have the two words translated as “for that”:
AV, Darby, Webster, and YLT (Young’s Literal Translation)

In the Diaglot (a very literal translation) they are translated as “in which.”

The Douay and JB2013 have it “in whom.” And Weymouth has it “in that.”

And no translation has “upon whom” as I think it should be,—though I can’t make sense of my translation in context.