The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Nations of the Earth and the New Jerusalem

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

My question is for the Greek scholars here, or basically anyone who has some useful insights.
I’ve been doing a bit of study around Revelation 21 and 22 in particular the New Jerusalem. I think there is a strong case for it being symbolic of the church but given it may be literal, the description depicts the nations of the earth walking by it’s light and the kings of the earth bringing their glory into it.

My question here is regarding the translation; King James and some others speak of the “nations of them which are saved…”, whereas the NIV,CLV and Interlinear and others just speak of the “nations of the earth…”, the Greek word for nation being ‘ethnos’ usually used for gentile / heathen nations.

Is “of them which are saved” an insertion?

Your input appreciated.
S

#2

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 21:24 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics
καὶ περιπατήσουσιν τὰ ἔθνη διὰ τοῦ φωτὸς αὐτῆς, καὶ οἱ βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς φέρουσιν τὴν δόξαν αὐτῶν εἰς αὐτήν,

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 21:24 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
καὶ περιπατήσουσι τὰ ἔθνη διὰ τοῦ φωτὸς αὐτῆς, καὶ οἱ βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς φέρουσι τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν αὐτῶν εἰς αὐτήν,

New American Standard (©1995)
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 21:24 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
και τα εθνη των σωζομενων εν τω φωτι αυτης περιπατησουσιν και οι βασιλεις της γης φερουσιν την δοξαν και την τιμην αυτων εις αυτην

King James Bible
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

I guess the difference comes from which family of texts you wish to follow. IMHO the weight of evidence seems to favour the Greek Orth. and Westcott text.

And an interesting thing that I found with the Textus Receptus text for the words “which are saved” could better have been translated “which are being saved”. Could this be more evidence of interpretation rather then translation by the KJV folks?

#3

Hi Sturmy

I hope you don’t mind me kind of hijacking your thread, but don’t you think your post highlights one of the fundamental absurdities of the doctrine of ECT?

If ECT is true, then the ‘true’ or ‘correct’ translation of many passages, many words, in the Bible is of vital importance. If we blunder in our translation then we put our eternal souls at risk.

And would the one true God ever predicate His kingdom on such ambiguous grounds? I think not.

J

#4

Thank you URPilgrim, so the earlier manuscripts are sans ‘…of the saved’ and in any case the phrase might be better read as ‘…which are being saved’?

Johnny:

Yes indeed Johnny, I believe you’re right.
I’ve wondered why the scriptures at times seem ambiguous and at times downright obscure. Many would argued that if our minds are enlightened by the Holy Spirit then this would not be the case.
I wonder though putting aside our stupidity when we ignore or reinterpret the obvious truths; if The Lord keeps some of the nuggets slightly out of reach to stop us getting complacent and to keep us spurred on to continue searching and, yes, questioning. And stop us getting too cocky!

My question re: the translation: ‘the nations’ or the ‘nations of the saved’ stems from my previous background as an Annihilationist. Some of those I encounter, that I try to introduce the concept of UR to, are of the S D A persuasion.
The official line is that the New Jerusalem descends to the earth after the millennium and that it contains the ‘church’ (those righteous who were saved at the Coming of Christ.) at this stage the ‘wicked’ who were slain at His coming are newly resurrected for judgement and condemnation, then under the leadership of the devil they rise up to surround and attack the New Jerusalem. At this time God sends fire down to destroy them (cast into the LoF)
So much for that. A believer in this scenario though might be encouraged to question the meaning of the gates remaining open; and who are the nations ( previously always gentile unconverted heathen) and their kings bringing their glory to the City. A difficulty as with the above interpretation the only remaining people are those who were saved at Christ’s 2nd coming who are in the City.
They would probably argue that this refers to a time after the destruction of the wicked and the newly created earth when the saved can come and go to the City.
If the actual text in question reads ‘the nations of the saved’ then this perhaps is more in keeping with their thinking. Hence my question.
There is of course, the whole washing of robes in the river (of life) providing entry to the city for those who do so, and the leaves of the tree of life being for the healing of the nations that I think adds weight to the post Mortem conversion argument.

Sorry if this explanation is a bit convoluted. It may seem an incidental matter but perhaps you can see my point; guess the more arrows one has in ones quiver the better, eh.

Noticed too Jason’s study on Rev 21 & 22 that I’m sure has plenty interesting perspectives and may even mention this passage;
I haven’t explored this yet but will this weekend hopefully - thank you, Jason.

Cheers S

#5

That phrase from the TR is a super-late addition, found in the one 12th century Greek text available to Erasmus when he was working on his proto-TR. (The term “Textus Receptus” is publishing hyperbole from a later edition.)

The USB lists no such variation in any primary family up through the early middle ages. Metzger in summarizing the various arguments for readings indicates from silence there was no question.

The Nestle-Aland apparatus indicates two variants of that verse (Rev 21:24) in regard to whether the glory and the honor of the nations is being brought into the NJ, or only the glory of them. No variations about whether the nations are “of the saved”.

I have no idea what the text critical argument in favor of the TR/KJV phrase is supposed to be, or even if there is any. (I’d actually like to find a critical apparatus for the TR where people are arguing for its superiority, just for sake of fair comparison. Green was supposed to include one in his edition of the TR, which I’ve found highly useful for various translation reasons – enough so that I have two editions of his work, one with the OT! – but neither of my editions has his source notes. :frowning: )

#6

Thanks a lot Jason that’s very helpful and sheds a good deal of light on the subject - cheers S

#7

Hi Sturmy,

The reference to the “nations” in contradistinction to the church (New Jerusalem) in Revelation 21:24 is another strong ground for re-assessing God’s plan for all humanity, and in what role does the church play in “giving light to the nations”.

Revelation 21:23-24 - “And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.”

Isaiah 60:3 - “Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn.”

**Isaiah 60:16 **- “You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”

**Isaiah 49:23 **- “Kings will be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. They will **bow down before you **with their faces to the ground; they will lick the dust at your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who hope in me will not be disappointed.”

Revelation 3:9 - “Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie–I will make them come and bow down at your feet.”

These are some of the scriptures that speak of the intricate relationship of the ‘nations’ to the church throughout history, and the purpose and objective which the church has toward the nations in God’s ultimate will. God is love!

S.