The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Purge: Election Year, Hypocrisy, and The Nature Of God

Theology Biblical Theology
#132

Came to this convo late. Haven’t been on here much of late. So, the week before the election my loving hubby did his best to keep me and the news far apart. He doesn’t like to see me gloomy. He kept telling me it would be okay even if she should happen to win the election. He maintained he believed Trump would end up with the win–which is, in light of her darkness, almost blinding noonday sunshine. I did NOT want to see this nation turn into a third-world dictatorship administrated by a career criminal. Lest you think I’m being hyperbolic, I’m not. I really mean that. The thought of a Hillary Clinton president filled me with dread. I feel better now–but if she HAD won, I would not have smashed the windows of your store or turned your car over or even, really, gotten out the poster-board and the magic markers.

For those of you distraught, don’t be. Don, this election is not going to bring down the USA. Canada is safe.

Qaz, Reaganomics was very good for the economy and did in fact float all boats–or at least all the boats people cared to paddle. I remember; I was there (and I was poor). Welfare as anything more than a stop-gap measure does not help people. It victimizes and disempowers them. The poverty culture is a deep, deep, deep problem which cannot be solved and can only be exacerbated by long-term subsidies. It’s dehumanizing to have no means to support your family, but even given a job, the poor do not tend to know what to do with it. Their culture teaches them that it’s okay to be late, okay not to show for many good reasons (you have no babysitter is a big one), that it’s okay to mouth off to the supervisor because you don’t like her/him (because she wants you to do the job in the way SHE wants it done, because he wants to know if you can’t come to work today, because she needs you to arrange consistent and dependable childcare, etc.), that doing the minimum required ought to put you in the boss’s good graces and so on. Is it their fault that many feel this way? No, not really–but it’s nevertheless a big problem when it comes to holding meaningful and lasting employment. Helping the poor is difficult, and it’s made more difficult by the availability of subsidies. The subsidies are no friend of the poor, since subsidies keep their heads barely above water while denying them motivation to consent to being helped up onto a steamboat where they must expend effort to shovel some coal into the engine, prepare food for the crew, learn to navigate so that one day they may captain their own steamboats and go out to rescue the oft-unwilling poor. I don’t know the answer to the problem of poverty, but in a culture of such abundance, the answer is NOT to throw money at them. They must somehow be inspired to want to support themselves through the means the rest of us use–hard work. If there is no middle class (and Hillary was invested in bankrupting the middle class–she wanted people who need her handouts), then there will be no one to help the poor and nothing for them to aspire to.

One of Trump’s propositions (which you probably didn’t hear about on CBS/NBC/CNN/NYT, etc.) was to provide credits and subsidies for child and elder care so that people who need jobs can reliably show up for work and the cost of care doesn’t cancel out their wages. I and many other evil conservatives applauded that . . . LOUDLY. That would be a very good thing, and I hope Trump will remember he said this.

Trump wants to deport CRIMINAL illegal aliens. For others, he proposed a couple of paths to citizenship–not easy paths, not probably viable paths for us to administer, but I think that the fact he proposed them displays his actual intent toward non-criminal illegal aliens. As for criminal illegals, they prey on their own communities more than on anyone else–and even if they DID only rob, rape and kill unworthies (ie: caucasians), such men still need to be incarcerated and/or deported.

Obamacare is an absolute disaster. Trump has promised to repeal and/or replace it. He says he wants to keep provisions for children to stay on their parents’ insurance plans until their mid-twenties and for protection for those with pre-existing conditions. He wants affordable healthcare for everyone, but in a system that can actually work. Even Bill Clinton says Obamacare is a mess. No one is against affordable healthcare. What we are NOT for is unaffordable insurance that doesn’t pay for healthcare.

Bottom line here to me–I believe that Trump will govern as a fiscal conservative, but socially, will be more to the left of center. He is not the comic book demon he was portrayed as by most of the media. Well-meaning liberals are terrified of a bogie man–a phantom who does not exist. The propaganda arm of the Democratic party (er, I mean the media) is responsible for this caricature and responsible for the pain and terror of illegals, minorities, and so many others. Shame on them.

If anyone is afraid, please be comforted. It’s going to be okay–you’ll see. Just breathe.

#133

Wonderfully stated. :exclamation: :exclamation:

#135

Cindy said:

Yes Cindy, our culture is changing, I agree with your sentiment. And would/will applaud! We need to address these changes as opposed to just saying ‘we want 1950 back’

#136

Cindy said:

In my work place I run into this every day… You are striking a cord… If you want to elaborate more on this subject, I would listen. This is a huge part of our culture that is somehow not addressed. :astonished:

Thanks for sharing.

#137

Yes there are millions of people who fit that description well - and I am NOT referring to this or that color of skin. And those people can be exploited by a give-away system that guarantees votes for liberal politicians - not many people can resist the free monthly check or checks, and once used to those checks, will be loath to vote those politicians out of office.
That is not racist or homophobic or any of the other stupid labels people put on conservatives.

#138

Speaking as an outside observer… the only thing more astonishing than Trump’s verbal decadence has been the convenient pragmatism of American evangelicals who apparently voted FOR Trump en masse. :astonished:

#139

Yes :exclamation: :exclamation: You are right, so how do we as Christians and members of society deal with these issues, politically, economically and most importantly, Spiritually? :confused: GOSH :exclamation: :exclamation: These are BIG questions :exclamation:

#140

This is and interesting by-product of the American political arena… you end up with two choices. Go figure :exclamation: :laughing:

#141

Davo - -(this is not directed to you btw) I have a number of acquaintances in other countries who have a complete - I mean complete - minunderstanding of the issues here in the states - they simply do not get the information that is available to us - some of them, for goodness’ sake, have not ever been shown the ways that Clinton is deceptive, has broken many laws and been SHOWN to be untrustworthy with America security measures (proven by the FBI), lying under oath, stealing, pandering etc etc. Their media just doesn’t show them.

As to potty mouth - how about this:
:The issue surfaced during her 2000 Senate campaign with publication of a new book on the Clinton marriage. Celebrity biographer Jerry Oppenheimer reported that the night Bill unexpectedly lost his 1974 Arkansas congressional seat bid, Hillary shrieked at his campaign manager, “you f*****g Jew bastard.” (Yeah, I put in the ***** to spare us the word)

#142

qaz, by whom were these laws prescribed, man or God? As I recall in the feeding of the 5,000, Jesus did not take anything from anyone. I would say that this miracle came about through people willingly giving and sharing with one another-in other words through the heart. There are many who proclaim how awesome God is and that anything is possible with Him, yet they run to the government to take care of all their problems and needs, seeking the law to fix things for them, as if the government is God and Savior of all. Of course, there are those who will gladly try to assume this role, giving people a bunch of empty promises which thy try to fulfill by digging into the pockets of anyone who has money, misusing the law and the power of taxation. They don’t care as long as they get elected. I do not deny a need for government, and we must pay taxes for the duties that they perform. But as I mentioned before, as Jesus said, "Render unto Cesar the things that are Cesar’s and to God the things that are God’s. The duties of the government do not include feeding the sheep, clothing the sheep, etc. etc. When it comes to an individual’s personal needs, these duties are delegated to the church. When we forsake God , we know what happens. Not only does the Bible testify of it, but history, as it repeats itself, testifies of it as well.

#144

Oh My Goodness :open_mouth: Just when I thought this forum was getting stale :exclamation: :exclamation:

#145

The question that needs to be asked is this: Why did the “experts” and the “statistical and marketing” pollsters get things wrong?

One article I read, had a good hypothesis. Most folks asked were “closet Trump voters”. But they were too embarrassed, to admit it.

I’m all for giving “Trump and the Trumpeters” a fighting chance. Which is really just 2 years.

Why?

If he’s successful, then folks will keep the Republicans in Congress.

If not, then all those protesting college students (and others), will register to vote.

And they will put Democrats in Congress - to balance things.

But maybe “Trump and the Trumpeters” are pragmatic. And they will compromise on things, just to get things done.

Yes. The press will be watching closely. And they will have their informers and sources on hand.

How do the tabloids do it? Well, they have paid informants (i.e. waiters and waitresses, etc.). working at places the stars hang out.

And giving back that juicy stuff - for a “financial reward.”

Let’s see how “Trump and the Trumpeters” deal with world leaders, Congress, the press, lobbyists, etc.

Hopefully, we will all be singing this song. :exclamation: :laughing:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=JoQ4GidQP-k

#146

qaz, If I am understanding you correctly, you feel that people have a right to take from another’s wallet, using the strong arm of the law to do so, as long as a person has a need, such as food, clothing, shelter, etc. No, I don’t believe that this is what the Bible teaches, nor would Jesus be teaching this. Do you believe that God approves of such acts? If so then I would say that you have a distorted view of what the kingdom of God is all about.

#147

Qaz, my description is from my experience, and that is where I came up with it. I had no idea of the horrible hurdles encountered by people of the poverty class concerning escaping poverty.

First, most of them grew up in poverty. They didn’t have the advantage that I had of having grown up in a middle class home. I am telling you (and it shocked me to see this) I have seen impoverished women overjoyed to learn simple cooking skills–I’m talking about really simple things here. They barely knew how to boil an egg. This is not their fault. They were raised by their older sisters, who raised themselves while mom partied and drank with friends. All or most of their brothers and sisters are often half-siblings, and some of them don’t know who their father is. All my life I’ve heard, “Why don’t they just go out and get a job?”

THEY DON’T KNOW HOW.

And believe it or not, IT’S NOT THEIR FAULT.

You think I’m being dismissive and stereotyping the poor? I’m not. Most people have absolutely no clue the obstacles the poor (those of them who are lifetime members of the poverty class) face in their quest (if indeed they HAVE a quest) to escape the poverty culture. I have a good friend who runs a ministry in our town called Love INC. They give classes in budgeting, applying for and keeping a job, caring for children, cooking and nutrition, getting out of debt, etc.

From the point of view of a person in the poverty culture, it ought to be okay not to show up for work because your babysitter is sick, and you don’t really need to call. Please don’t misunderstand. I’m not denigrating people who think this way. They were TAUGHT by their culture that this is the case. You don’t show up–eh–it doesn’t matter–they’ll know I’m not there when I don’t show up. They’ll deal–I would. Getting and keeping a reliable babysitter is a SERIOUS obstacle to gainful employment. Mostly the poor must depend on relatives–aging mothers and grandmothers, friends, husbands/boyfriends, etc. The poor don’t have the knowledge resources that the middle class have. They don’t know how to obtain professional child-care, even if subsidized. The poor do miss out on a lot of benefits they could take advantage of because they don’t know how to get them, and because it’s terrifying to venture into a world of which you know nothing.

The poor are more inclined to stay home sick from work–the idea of going to work when feeling even slightly under the weather is foreign to them. Again, that’s not their fault–they really believe the world works this way, because THEIR world works this way. Now this person, who takes two or three days off a week because of childcare challenges, and maybe another day or two a month for sickness, and often doesn’t feel it’s necessary to inform their employer, will be stoically accepting when they lose the job. This is the way life always goes for them; everyone and everything is against them. They don’t get it that their employer truly NEEDS them to show up consistently. It’s not that they don’t care or that they’re necessarily lazy. It’s truly a foreign concept to them.

The poor put a very high value on entertainment. I know of one family who had received new kitchen appliances from a church sponsorship. Stove, refrigerator, etc. A month later, they sold all the appliances so that they could go on a camping trip, and they just said, “Well, we really needed a break, and to get away from town for a while.” Please understand–they had no expectation that anyone would ever see anything wrong with what they did. It was an obvious thing to them that taking a weekend trip was worth doing without a refrigerator and stove for the perceivable future. They tend to think that eating out is a good value and less expensive than preparing food at home. I’m not talking about MacDonalds, BTW. When they get a special check from the government (as some of the poor around here do every year), they will often spend it all on electronics and other forms of entertainment.

The poor are very giving. If they come into money (say from an inheritance), they will share it with their whole extended family and friends. OR they will spend it very quickly. If the family and friends find out, they’ll expect their share of it and start coming around asking for help with this or that. I know one family who hurried to buy a used car. They couldn’t keep the money for very long because if they did, others would ask for it, and they would have to give it. Otherwise next time they were in need, others might refuse to help them. If a poor person rents a house, she will soon have others asking to stay with her. Usually these others will not be able to contribute to the rent or bills–or food, for that matter. She will feel obligated however, to allow friends/family members to move in. How could she turn down her cousins or her girlfriend’s son or her uncle and his girlfriend. Because of this, the poor are usually very accustomed to moving from place to place often two or more times a year. They must be ready at any moment to pack up everything and find a new place to live because they’ve finally been evicted–whether for nonpayment or for bad conditions in the house (often partly caused by over-crowding) or of course, for having non-renters living with them and other things.

OBVIOUSLY this does not apply to every single poor person, nor do all the poor have the same challenges, nor is this anything like an exhaustive list. Poverty in America is exceedingly complex. It is NOT helped by a faltering and spluttering economy. When college grads can’t get work, what hope do the undereducated poor have? Because of this, it’s important that the economy be vigorous if the poor are to escape poverty. It’s important that there are a large number of entry-level jobs offering a living wage available to the poor. In an economy in which such jobs are hard to come by, a large influx of immigrants (documented or otherwise) willing to work for very low wages, is very hard on the poor who already live here. On top of that, some foreigners are accustomed to working much harder, are more motivated, and willing to work for less money than natural citizens. I don’t know what to say about that. People SHOULD work hard to give their employer good value for their wages, just as employers should provide a good working environment and a fair wage to their employees. On the other hand, a large influx of workers who are willing to work for unfair wages is a hardship to those of the poor who are trying to get a job that pays well enough for them to feed their families.

I’m telling you, it’s one helluva tangle. Helping someone (even someone who WANTS to be helped) out of poverty is a big job for the two of you. GETTING someone to the point where he WANTS the help is PDT (pretty dang tricky), too. If you suggest he might need/want help, you’re in danger of insulting him. He is not accustomed to learning in a classroom setting–he grew up in survival mode, not in academic mode. Neurologically, it is VERY difficult to change over. Some neurologists say it can’t be done; I don’t buy that. He lives on “fight or flight,” not on balancing a budget or punching a time clock. He lives in the moment. If he has a roof and a sandwich, he feels like he’s doing pretty good. He’s happy. It doesn’t occur to him that he needs to make provision for himself and his family for consistent shelter and food. He’s always done okay living one day at a time. Plus, to complicate things further, if he does get a job, he may have LESS money in his pocket that he does from the public till.

As you see, Qaz, you kind of got me going here. It’s a sensitive spot for me–liberals USING the poor as some kind of herd animals to to be kept barely alive so that, every 2-4 years, they can make them a bunch of empty promises and then cash in on their block vote. That frankly sucks. I’m talking about the political class here–not loving, caring folks like you.

We need to be HELPING the poor, not making ourselves feel good by delivering Christmas boxes to them (How humiliating! How excruciatingly painful for the parents who couldn’t buy gifts for their children themselves!) or paying our taxes so they can get food stamps and then feeling we’ve done our bit. We haven’t. THAT isn’t enough–in fact, THAT is overwhelmingly harmful to the chances of the poor. They need REAL help, not these crap subsidies designed to keep them dependent and impoverished. Throwing money at people’s problems is disrespectful and so, so, so not enough.

#150

Thanks :frowning:

#151

I didn’t say I want to get rid of food stamps, Qaz. I said that public assistance for most of the needy should not be more than a stop-gap–a safety net for those who take a fall. You don’t stay in the safety net. You climb out (with or without help) and get back on the trapeze.

#152

qaz, sorry, but I disagree. From what I understand,the New Testament does speak of such things. As I mentioned before, Jesus said "Render unto Cesar (government) the things that are Cesar’s and unto God the things that are God’s. This is a separation. Yes, we do need law ( the lion) to administer justice when someone violates another such as in the case of murder, rape, theft etc. But the church(the lamb) suffers willingly. The charitable acts of God are not to come through the law but rather the heart. The kingdom of God/ church is to be in the world not of the world. Again, this shows a separation. When we are down and out, we are to have faith that God will provide through the Spirit which moves the heart. This is a demonstration of the power of God’s love.

#155

qaz, sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about when you say desert- based property rights :confused: . Maybe you can explain?? As I mentioned before, I do believe that government is necessary. However, it is restricted in it’s duties. Government does not and should not have complete power over everything. It must be kept in check. When it over steps it’s boundaries there is chaos, which is the case in everything. And, I think that this is what Jesus was pointing out when He said “Render unto Cesar…” As I recall, Jesus over turned the money tables in the temple. I may be wrong, but I would say His anger was partially due to the fact that people were being forced to give. Yes, of course one should be locked up for violating someone else! But, being locked up for not giving and sharing with your neighbor is a whole different matter. Love can not be coerced, otherwise,it is not genuine and true. Really, where should we draw the line? If your neighbor needs car because he can not afford one, should you be locked up for not giving him yours? Should one be locked up for not stopping to help the guy with the flat tire? Of course not. However, this it what you seem to be advocating.

#156

Drain the swamp and there will be enough money to take care of everyone and part of the world as well. The working class Americans pay almost 5 months of wages for tax purposes - does anyone really think that taking more is either fair or practical? But we know that fraud waste and outright stealing is rampant in government - on the taxpayer’s dime of course. And I mean rampant to the billions if not trillions.

What REALLY needs to be done? I hate to say it, but Americans would have to give up luxuries and over-spending and wastefulness for an entire generation or two, to pay off the national debt and get the good ship USA out of the floundering seas and into calm waters.

So - drain first, and then tighten the belt and learn how to save.

I posted this and checked the news and voila! - an example.
foxnews.com/world/2016/11/17 … kabul.html

My question is - where did the money go? Who got rich? THOSE are the rich we should be going after, not those who have actually earned it.

#157

From Fortune magazine:

What Trump Can Learn From Jimmy Carter’s Failure to ‘Drain the Swamp’

https://www.swamp.com.au/images/Bludgerigar-Swamp-Cartoons.jpg