The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Purge: Election Year, Hypocrisy, and The Nature Of God

True, Dave. Too true. On the up side, for many of us having less stuff (and especially less cheap imported stuff produced on the backs of people who are for all practical purposes, enslaved) would be a big improvement.

Qaz, the whole system needs overhauled from top to bottom. One good thing might be to offer classes in self-reliance (such as my friend provides) with the caveat that you need to attend, say, four out of five, to receive your food/lodging/fuel/etc. vouchers. The knowledge imparted by these classes has helped many people (many of whom I have met) escape poverty. Of these, many have themselves become mentors to others seeking to escape. How do they get people to attend? First, students often bring family and friends. Second, fuel vouchers, food bags, diapers, etc. You have to be there if you want to receive the relief supplies. At first people come just to get the relief, and for other reasons such as X dollars worth of school clothing for their children if they graduate the six-week once-a-week program. Later though, many continue because they see their lives improving.

This sort of thing would COST more in the short run than just sending a check, but there would, for many, be a light at the end of the tunnel. Transportation when needed and childcare are provided. Dinner is served by various volunteer organizations. This is a very beneficial program which also respects the humanity of those it serves. Such programs could be provided through faith-based communities, many of whom would be able to provide volunteer mentors and even teachers. Or they could be provided by secular organizations, so long as they are not political and meet appropriate standards–providing the knowledge the clients need and treating them with respect.

Just one idea. I’m not a policy “wonk,” and others will doubtless have ideas far superior to mine. Nevertheless, this nation has the talent to come up with programs that will WORK, rather than simply perpetuating the dependence, hopelessness and continued poverty of those we wish to help.

I really think that wanting to take money from the rich is problematic for this reason: we as a nation have over-spent and under-saved, bought and bought things we cannot afford , all on the basis of ‘credit’ - with no savings to back it up. It’s been our greed that has bankrupted the country, not the rich.

WE cannot penalize those that have earned their money, just because the most of us have lived on credit, run up debt etc. - it’s on us. We cannot spend our way out of this - living very frugally on a national basis is the only way to catch up, and it will take time.

Tolstoyan anarchism?!!! I have been an avid reader of Tolstoy for many years, especially his writings after he became a Christian. I saw no evidence of anarchism in ANY of them.

Dave, the U.S.A. will NEVER pay off the national debt. They might at times balance the budget, but the debt cannot be paid off. If every cent of money in the United States were applied to the national debt, there would be no money at all in the country to purchase goods and services, and STILL the debt would not have been fully paid off. In January of this year the national debt was about $18.96 trillion. The total amount of money in United States is about $10.5 trillion. The country’s money system is based on debt. Money comes into existence as a debt. The same with Canada.

Money SHOULD come into existence as a credit, and balance the goods and services available. Most people THINK that’s what happens, but it doesn’t.

I see nothing in your quote, or in Tolstoy’s words in the link you provided, that he advocated anarchy. He believed in sharing what we have with others. He was also opposed to violence as Christ taught. That’s why he thought it better not to own any land; otherwise you would have to defend your land with violence.

Indeed, when the Communists took over Russia, they thought that Tolstoy had been a “pre-communist.” But they never considered him to be an anarchist.

The State, as a partner in the social contract, is supposed to keep my neighbor from forcing me against my will, at gunpoint.
I’m not certain that it is ‘inherently’ coercive in theory - of course in practice, power wielded by corrupt people will end up being coercive. I don’t know of a way around that, since even in their flights of fancy, Marxists and communists have to recognize that their utopias cannot work, even though they try to overcome the quest for power by individuals, by way of a distributed means of production.
Animal Farm, ya’ll.

qaz said earlier,

As we all know, American citizens must choose between Republican and Democrat platforms. (And with all due respect to brother Tolstoy, I don’t see anarchy as a viable alternative. Technically, anarchy may be defined as “a society without government or law,” but in practical terms it would translate into chaos and brutality.)

Personally I am most concerned about abortion, eugenics, and the freedom to practice and share my Christian faith. Those concerns have moved me to vote Republican.

qaz has expressed strong concern regarding a perceived disadvantage to the poor in the Republican healthcare plan, and regarding a Republican tax plan which seems to favor the more wealthy. Those concerns have moved him to vote Democrat. I respect that.

(Paidion, as a Canadian citizen, has shared apprehension about Donald Trump having access to nuclear weapons.)

But again, as Christians, I would challenge all of us to be more open to the divine supernatural, foremost. I am talking about, for example, dreams and visions and revelations. I feel like maybe we are missing something: there is a song of life and love, a divine symphony that holds the cosmos together, and we need to tune in and harmonize with it. I would like to remind you about my earlier discussion of “The Divine Exchange” of Isaiah 53 (above).

I am just starting to see that God’s power is made manifest in those who trust in God’s goodness instead of in their own good behavior. There are two ways we can live life: to be always conscious of the demand put on us to perform and achieve, or to be conscious of God’s abundant supply toward us, meeting our every need. God’s supply flows when we are Christ-occupied. To be demand-conscious is to come under the law—the law demands; while to be supply-conscious is to come under God’s grace—grace supplies.

I believe God hates evil, and that God has disallowed all evil through the finished work of Christ. So we Christians should enforce that victory, and not “neglect so great a salvation.” With an already defeated enemy, and infinite resources at our disposal, we certainly don’t want to allow ourselves, or those around us, to be defrauded or victimized. (And how do we implement Christ’s finished work? We use “the keys of the Kingdom of heaven”: binding and casting out death, and loosing and proclaiming life. See, e.g., Mt. 16:19.)

I want to leave you with this message by my friend, Richard Murray, that discusses how,** in God’s economy, “less is more”**:

Blessings.

Hermano, great post! :slight_smile:

qaz, thanks for the info :slight_smile: I suppose I do not get around much seeing as how I have never heard of Tolstoy, Nozak, or any of the other people you mention :blush: As to your question concerning the boundaries of the government, in looking at the Scriptures, there are several things I see. The law(government) and the church are both institutions of God, but they seem to be declared as separate from each other. For example, in the Old Testament they had the kings(law) and the Levites(priests), as well as Moses(law) and Aaron(prophet/priest). In the New Testament, Jesus says that He did not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them, distinguishing one from the other. I suppose the duties of the law may become quite complicated due to the fact that societies change and more and more people become involved with each other. However, the duties of the church clearly involve taking care of an individual’s personal needs. One of the major problems I see in our government today is a merging of the church and state, causing tension, discontent and hatred towards one another. I don’t see more social programs as the answer. Proverbs 1:13-15 says this: We shall find all kinds of precious possessions, We shall fill our houses with spoil; cast in your lot among us, let us all have one purse. My son, do not walk in the way with them, keep your foot from their path.

i remember when i was a software engineering consultant. And I led a small group, to different places to eat.

Sounds harmless enough, right? And I did pick a good variety of choices - for eating out.

Except one Hispanic guy, complained. Probably not enough Mexican food in the mix.

My solution?

I allowed people to take turns picking. And one time, a guy we will call Bill, chose a popular buffet chain. One that is frequented by retired people.

Halfway through the meal, Bill remarked:

To which we all remarked:

So I might say in the future.

**Not **that the other candidate was that outstanding, mind you. :exclamation: :laughing:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE

Randy - Nice trolling! :astonished:
You’re right, Randy, I did choose to vote for him. With eyes wide open to the possible consequences.

  1. He might turn out to be nothing more than a crony capitalist. (like HRC)
  2. He might turn out to be a law-breaking criminal, miserable, lying, stealing, predator-enabling, greedy politician (probably not as high on the scale as HRC)
  3. He might sell our Uranium to the Russians, or get us even more embroiled in the Mideast, or institute a completely failed health-care program (Like…you know)

Ok - IOW, he could turn out to be another HRC. Worse than HRC? Hard to imagine, except for his detractors, that are pretty sure he hates everyone except rich people, will push the red button in a fit of pique and end the world as we know it, wants to break up families in a wild-eyed lust to get every illegal worker out of this country, who really does think everyone coming across the border illlegally is a predator-enabler, a thief, a liar, a law-breaker - hey, like brown HRC’s !!

OTOH

He might not be able to do a thing. OR -

He could provide the conditions to help make America great again - a light to the world, a hand up to the helpless, a true proponent of peace and prosperity for each person who wants it.

He gives us a chance. HRC would give us more of the same, and the same is not what America should or could be.

My .02 Yes Randy I took the bait. Good job!!

qaz wrote:

I didn’t exactly say that, but since you put it that way, why don’t we consider why the Church lacks resources, and spiritual power?

I certainly don’t mean to be patronizing when I say, “Don’t Forget The Miracle Of The Loaves!!” I’m trying to shift us away from focusing on pragmatic disagreements about politics and economics, to the supernatural provision available from the Kingdom of Heaven. (And I don’t think that is “anti-Christian economics”… :slight_smile: )

I don’t think anyone here is advocating that; it’s a straw-man argument??

There ARE downtrodden, yes; there ARE those that have continually made bad life choices, yes. Some kind of prudence needs to be practiced in order to help the one group (by ‘help’ I don’t mean enabling).

Unfortunately, man men abdicate leadership by leaving their families - rampant in big cities - so yes, the wife/kids are now in a sense ‘downtrodden’. The bible seems to point to widows and orphans.

qaz, Again, looking at Scripture, when the question," Is it lawful to pay taxes?", Jesus picked up a coin and answered “Who’s picture is on the coin?” They replied, Cesar’s. “Then, render unto Cesar the things that are Cesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.” Notice that Jesus did NOT hold up a coin that had God’s face on it. Essentially this means that YES it is lawful to collect taxes for governmental duties. But, NO it is not lawful to be taxing people to do the work of the church. The duties of the church involve much more than just visiting old people. They include feeding and clothing people, taking care of the sick, infirm, widows, orphans etc. etc… Maybe you believe that these things are impossible without having to make a law that forces others to pay. “Oh ye of little faith.” !!! I on the other hand believe that our God is one awesome and powerful God, and with Him anything is possible. And, if you don’t believe these words, take a good look at history and what is happening today as proof of what socialism leads to.
As far as sovereign individual rights are concerned, Jesus said I and My Father are One. Yes, we are individuals, each having “certain unalienable rights” that are God given and which no one can take away.

My preferred mode of civil government would be an Orthodox kingdom ruled by a pious Orthodox monarch. (St. Vladimir Equal-to-the-Apostles is a good real-world example. King Kit and Queen Ella from the 2015 Cinderella movie are good fictional examples.)

Failing that, I would go with right-wing, individualist anarchism.

In terms of nations that include voting, I like Switzerland and I like the United States before Andrew Jackson.

I like to describe myself as did Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn: an extreme liberal of the far right. “Far right” in terms of preferring an Orthodox monarchy or at least a quasi-stateless society with a Christian populace of brave, armed men constituting a militia instead of having police or military. “Extreme liberal” in terms of preferring a merciful society that cares for the sick, destitute, orphans, and widows. I think only an explicitly Christian social order can make this work. Secular society tends to have heavily-armed police forces and militaries, enforcing a welfare state of abortion, fornication, homosexuality, irresponsibility, and all the rest. In other words, an authoritarian and/or totalitarian state insisting on extreme wickedness enforced by extreme violence.

I did not make that argument.
The ‘force’ of the government? Good grief, anarchy would be tragic. Limited government? Sure.
We’re starting to talk at cross-purposes so I think I"ll leave the rest to you and the others.
Neither side, as far as I can see, is listening to the other side.

Here’s the person we should be looking for - to help us out. :laughing:

Has anyone read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand :question: If so, can we implement her ideas, into this political discussion here :question: ** It’s just a simple matter of combining the philosophy of Ayn Rand, with the theology of Christianity**.:question: :wink:

There’s an interesting article in Christianity Today entitled Ayn Rand Led Me to Christ. Here are some important points - from the article:

Ayn Rand taught me how to think.
Ayn Rand taught me that there is such a thing as objective reality.
Ayn Rand taught me to believe in moral absolutes
Ayn Rand taught me about humanity’s heroic destiny.

Let’s look at a couple of short reviews - on Amazon. :slight_smile:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=6W07bFa4TzM

In the interest of compromise, I’m trying to appropriate funds - for this federal government body. :exclamation: :laughing:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=iV2ViNJFZC8

Read it a few times. It has ‘straightened out my head’ on a couple of occasions.
Saying that the “$” is the most sacred symbol for man, though, was going a little too far.
And yeah, she is way overboard in her philosophy - still a breath of fresh air when one is needed.

I’m keeping my powder dry until I see what else Trump does - he’s not even in office yet. (that ‘powder dry’ comment wasn’t a threat, just a figure of speech btw :laughing: )
Do you really think I have something against the unfortunate, the downtrodden, those that have made bad choices? I don’t. That’s why I think we are talking at cross purposes. The straw man I was talking about was like this: Republican, of course, rich, insider, with the Ayn Rand phiilosophy that treats all unfortunates as failures and deserving to be shot, white, so transfixed with love of the dollar that all other values are subsidiary.

That is not what most repubs and conservs are like.
So I really don’t see the issue that we are differing so much on.

No, I do think that the policy has to be prudent, though, and perhaps that is where we differ., each one of us seeing prudence in a little different way. I do not have a fully worked-out plan. If I did it would have to be one with checks and balances - giving money to an addict and having that money go straight up his nose is not ‘helping’.

I don’t know enough about it. Where does the money come from? Will there be someone watching every penny and giving us completely transparency? It’s our money, and the thought of crooked contractors stealing millions, or maybe a billion here or there that is just ‘lost’ - i.e., lining someone’s pockets - almost makes me physically ill.
Will there be visible actual results, and what they cost, and where leftover monies go?

I don’t trust government any further than I can throw it. Checks and balances are a must.

I rather like Trump’s plan to spend for infrastructure, provided it is judiciously applied and competently administered to minimize waste and seeks to give a fair (not too much; not too little) wage to all involved. Why? First, our infrastructure is like that of a hundred-year-old house that hasn’t been painted, re-plumbed, re-wired, re-roofed, had the foundation reinforced, etc. It’s a MESS. It may look good from above, but trust me (hubby’s job particularly brings this to my attention) it is rapidly reaching the point where we will have no choice but to invest in infrastructure. Not only is it crumbling and outdated, it is vulnerable–terrifyingly vulnerable–to even the marginally skilled saboteur/terrorist/hostile power/even prankster.

The good news is that, while there will be plenty of room for engineers, architects and specialists of all kinds, there will also be a great need for workers with all levels of skill-sets. This would be a great opportunity for those who don’t have the ability to work at other jobs–yet–AND provide training they might never otherwise have access to.

A rebuilding of this scale will call for natural resources (most of which we have), and that also calls for workers to (conscientiously) extract natural resources. So, more work, and in the largest part, work that any healthy adult can do with very little training. It will also mean work for the manufacturing sector (and a rebuilding of same, because this would be a WWII-scale job, and probably even more demanding than that.) Instead of investing in foreign dictators (which is where the lion’s share of foreign “aid” tends to go), investment in our own country will enrich our people. (I’m not against foreign aid, supposing it really IS aid to the hurting rather than political payoffs.)

Aside from giving people the chance to enrich themselves both monetarily and spiritually with genuine meaningful work–work that helps their communities while giving them the dignity of contributing to society, it will make our lives better in many ways. Just to start with, city water that isn’t full of lead, electrical systems that are more efficient and less vulnerable (and aren’t a hair’s breadth away from failing us completely–as they are now), waste disposal plants that function properly don’t put our waterways and aquifers at risk, etc. It’s a big and expensive job–yet not doing it is absolutely not an option. This could have been a “shovel-ready” job, but somehow that never panned out.

Sadly, it seems almost impossible (especially given the current moral state of our culture) that such a program could be carried out with a minimum of graft and fraud and bribery. I know I wouldn’t want to attempt it. There are a lot of folks out there much smarter than I, however, and Trump does have experience in administering just this sort of thing (albeit on a much smaller scale). I have hope for the first time in a very long time.

Qaz, I don’t know that I’d cut SNAP at all, however I’ve always felt that food stamps ought to have stipulations. They ought to be spent on actual food. Junk food really should be excluded. I don’t buy things like potato chips, sugary pop, and crap like that for my family, so why should I be forced to foot the junk food bill for anyone else–and then pay for the doctors to try to cure them of what they’ve done to themselves?

I do think however, that receiving food stamps should be contingent on the recipients (who are at all able) taking advantage of programs effective in helping them to escape poverty and care for their own families. IOW, it should not be a life-long subsidy as it has become for so very many people. That kind of never-ending largess is not a kindness. That is enabling and IMO, is blatant abuse and victimizing of the poor. If you purposely fed your daughter on donuts and pepsi and encouraged her to watch television, play video games, surf the net, etc. to the exclusion of schoolwork, outdoor play, etc., I would call you a child abuser. I call the US government abusive too, because in acting as parent to the poor, it has dis-enabled them and enslaved them to its subsidies in order to secure to itself their bloc vote for whichever party promises the most goodies. AANNDD guess who is tapped to pay for that? No, not the rich–it is the rich DOING it. The middle class must pay, and in the process become impoverished. That’s okay, though–more voters for MEEEE! Pretty short-sighted imo, but politicians do seem to be a short-sighted lot.