There is a very simple solution to resolving the “rapture problem” that came to me years ago. Two years ago, when I met Peter Hiett, I was surprised to learn that his view was apparently the same as mine and he has published some work on it. A related post on another thread indicates that pilgrim here is in agreement as well.
The simple idea, which seems to resolve scriptural issues, is that rapture is an individual rather than corporate experience.
When you die, you are transported out of time and into eternity. From your new eternal perspective, you are “caught up in the air with Christ”.
It appears to you that all others are also participating in a simultaneous rapture because that is the perspective of eternity.
I’ve not been a believer in the rapture as such, but from the perspective of either remaining dead in the ground until a later resurrection, or instant translation, I’ve been of the opinion, as this involves movement to a timeless dimension it’s effectively instantaneous and perhaps seemingly simultaneous with the rest. In any event I won’t lose sleep over it. Cheers S
Don’t believe in the traditional view of the rapture either, but your view sounds a bit similar to Peter Hiett’s view (or at least the impression i got of what may be his view) of the second coming. In his sermon series on Matthew, from quite a few years back (specifically on Chapters 24 and 25), it almost sounded like he believed the second coming of Christ was something that each of us experienced upon our own individual deaths–a view I’d never heard before, but one quite intriguing, and I know he talks a lot about the whole space/time thing. Have you ever heard him discuss this before?
“timeless dimension”. Can’t make sense of it. http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/Emoticons/hmmm.gif
I believe in an infinite extension of time into the future. For time is a measurement of the “temporal distance” between two events. As long as there are events, there will be time.
True, we will all meet Jesus simultaneously. But in my view that’s not because of entering a “timeless dimension”. It’s because when we die, we are dead until Jesus raises us to life on the last day. So it will SEEM to us as if we were raised immediately after death, even though it may actually be ten thousand years later.
I had a discussion of this over lunch with Peter. Peter almost got to see if he was right that day. A few hours after our lunch, Peter had a heart attack. He has recovered nicely and will have to wait in time to verify his (and my) ideas on eternity.
I don’t believe in the rapture, and neither does the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and many Protestant denominations (i.e. at least, they don’t have an “official” doctrinal viewpoint). Having said that, I do have friends who do and we get along fine. I also think the the Left Behind book series is very interesting, as works of literature. Not great literature - mind you - but literature nonetheless.
Peter’s one and only heart attack was in December of 2012. He came back part time in just a few weeks and full time in about 3-4 months. He and I are almost the same age and he’s in way better shape than me, so…
How can you believe the apostle Paul and disbelieve the rapture that he taught?
1 Thessalonians 4 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Paul clearly wrote here that after the resurrection of “the dead in Christ,” those who will be in Christ and are living at that time will be “caught up” to meet the Lord. “The rapture” is simply an expression that means “the catching up.” Any good dictionary will include that meaning.
So are you affirming that the apostle was mistaken?
The Left Behind books promote a particular view of the rapture—that it could occur at any moment. Paul taught that it will occur after the resurrection of Christians who have died.
When will this occur, in conjunction with the tribulation?
What language is Paul using in Thessalonians, in conjunction with the “rapture” - concrete or abstract (in Bishop N.T. Wright’s terminology)?
When I took literature and philosophy courses, many moons ago…determining the language used, was a very important element.
The question is WHEN they will to meet the Lord. And ALSO how. A bit more on that later, when Anglican, New Testament scholar and bishop - talks about metaphorical language in Paul’s writings.
If I take the Zombie Apocalypse…as the most probable, end times tribulation model…ALL of us living will meet the zombies. But Christ will guide the Christians, on what to do and how to cope. But NO rapture to escape the tribulation.
If you read the last EO article, it does cover Thessalonians. Where it says the faithful will be “caught up”, at the second coming of Christ. At the end of the world. And this is what the EO, RC and most mainline Protestant churches believe.
I keep an open mind.
If I am taken in the rapture - with other believers…and escape the Zombie Apocalypse…so much the better.
Or if it has already occurred, like some here believe - so much the better.
Or if it’s an individual experience, like the thread starter said - so much the better.
So the BIG question is WHEN the rapture will occur, in conjunction with the tribulation. NOT the RAPTURE as popularly believed.
In the meantime, I’ll watch ALL the AMC episodes of The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead.
We are probably on the same page, with the Rapture - Paidion…except for the zombies. My BIGGER questions to you - are these.
Why do you challenge my answer NOW, and NOT in 2014 - when I gave it?
And WHY NOT challenge others in this thread, who ALSO ditch the rapture?
If I take an Eastern Orthodox (or Eastern Catholic) stance on something…don’t you think the theologians (both EO and RC), would take into consideration ALL scriptural passages?
And what about what Davo brought up…with Anglican N.T. scholar and bishop, N.T. Wright at (NOTICE what N.T. Wright IS saying…about using metaphoric language and symbolic images).
My motto is to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
“The same boiling water that softens the potato hardens the egg. It’s about what you’re made of, not the circumstances.”-- Author Unknown
That is NOT the question. There’s no question about it. Paul clearly taught WHEN they will be caught up to meet the Lord—and I quoted him in my post. Since you seem to have missed it, I hereby quote him again:
And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
How much clearer can you get? Immediately after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, those in Christ who will be alive in that day will be caught up (raptured) together with those who have been raised from death, to meet the Lord.
Well in spite of how different people see different things, one thing is certain… the Baptists will definitely be the first into heaven — “the dead in Christ rise first”
Again, I will agree with you on this. The dead in Christ, will meet him - at the end of time. But in the clouds? NOT necessarily. As far as the language, Paul uses - I side with Bishop Wright’s view. A key problem in Holy Scripture is WHEN the writer is using symbolic or metaphorical language…And when they are using straightforward language. I’m sure you would find folks who believe…ALL the language in Revelations is straightforward and literal.
And with the Catholic view at Catholic Answers - The Rapture, where I side with the amillennialist’s position (as presented in the Catholic article).
Amillennialism has been widely held in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches as well as in the Roman Catholic Church, which generally embraces an Augustinian eschatology and which has deemed that premillennialism “cannot safely be taught.”[11] Amillennialism is also common among Protestant denominations such as the Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican, many Messianic Jews, and Methodist Churches.[22] It represents the historical position of the Amish, Old Order Mennonite, and Conservative Mennonites (though among the more modern groups premillennialism has made inroads). It is common among groups arising from the 19th century American Restoration Movement such as the Churches of Christ,[23]:125 Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and Christian churches and churches of Christ. It also has a following among-st Baptist denominations such as The Association of Grace Baptist Churches in England.
And with the Eastern Orthodox position, that we meet Christ - at the end of time. But we will also, live through any “tribulation”.
Now we just have the Zombie Apocalypse… we all MIGHT have to live through first.
If some other view, turns out to be true. Like Christian’s will partake in a rapture - before trouble brews. Or Revelations has already took place. Etc. So much the better.
Perhaps this short video, will highlight potential language issues.
This subject is near and dear to my heart. When my 12 year old daughter was in a Christian school (free will Baptist and our family was not baptist) they were talking about the rapture. She came to me and said ‘dad, it just does not say the things in the bible that the teacher is saying,’ I told her to go do some research and showed her some places to look at the subject and she (bless her heart) went in and stood up to the teacher and the whole class. She floored them…
