The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Salvation Mysteries

Evangelical Universalism
#22

I don’t think its ‘toned down’ at all. Just clarified. The ‘state of being’ is just as scary as any horror chamber.
In the article Southern Baptists make a big deal of it being a real place not a state of being.
What’s the difference!!!
The only real question is whether it is for a persons ultimate good or not.

The article says:

hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.

‘freely and definitively’??? does he mean deliberately?? because if he does, it would be the definition of insanity. Based on his statement above, the logical conclusion is that the Roman Catholic hell would be empty.

#23

Well, I did go through the Roman Catholic RCIA class. As well as almost being a year (come October), hanging out with the Eastern Orthodox. There is an RC Bishop Robert Barron, who made many of the videos - used in the RCIA class. In one video, he talks about Dante’s Inferno. He mentioned that Satan, was in the deepest part of hell - where it is cold.

He also made a video (not shown in the RCIA class) - on Hopeful Universalism:

I think hell - if any end of there…is NOT a place of punishment…but of containing evil, from corrupting the new, established good…Which is what the book Skeletons in God’s Close believes.

Now I don’t know, whether the people there are conscious (i.e. have awareness) or not…but they exist…maybe as energy in the new earth (as contemporary, Old Catholic mystic - TIffany Snow envisions)…or as P-Zombies like NT Wright envisions

But heaven (whatever it is), would include folks from other faith traditions: As this conservative seminary, Calvinist theologian states:

And I’m sure I’ll see people there (if I’m one of the “chosen”), like these Tibetan saints:

Or those who are considered saintly - outside of Christianity (i.e. Amma and Karunamayi)

Least we forget…That Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and the forum rules here - allow for hopeful universalism. And it’s my sincere hope, that someone’s forum vision of universalism - turns out to be true.

But I have room, for a

  • Definitive Inclusivism (1,2,3,4)
  • And a Hope ( 1, 2, 3, 4) for universalism.

Now who here, would welcome the zombies of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) to heaven…if I were leading them…and they were NOT “civilized”?

#24

I’d like to know where he gets this idea from

#25

Dante’s Inferno, where it is directly stated.

At times, Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theologians…take Biblical things Protestants take as literal, and explain it with figurative language…Like Anglican NT scholar NT Wright, does with hell and other topics. Or those here do, who embrace some form of Full Preterism.

#26

That entire post was well said, John.

#27

And he teaches from a 14th century poem as if it were truth??!

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#28

No. He quotes from a poem. But he also reflects the theological language, of the RC church since Vatican II. I’m not RC. I just share my understanding, of what they teach and say,

I remember a story, from a contemporary Eastern Indian saint. Someone asked saint A about something saint B said. Saint A said something to this effect:

“Why not just pick up the telephone. Then call them and ask your question.”

Of course, you can also text, email and send a snail mail to them.

#29

There is no Hell. I’ll repeat, there is no Hell. :blush:

#30

I never said there was. But correction, even loving correction, can be very hard.
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad”

That was only for a couple thousand first-century Christians? C’mon, that’s not even reasonable. The gospel is more that ‘it’s all been done’ - it’s also 'now we must live in that light and exert ourselves with God’s help to have works and character that will follow me into the life after life after death."

#31

We are going around aunt sally’s house so to speak. If you believe there is an afterlife correction that is stated in the Christian bible, so be it. I see it differently, I see a God dealing with a specific group of people that we are blessed to be able to also see. We glean truths and understand different things but at the end of the day, it is a 2000 year old group of books that have been fought over since day one. :kissing_smiling_eyes::wink:

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#32

:roll_eyes:

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#33

The Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic position (and mine also)…is that heaven and hell are equally, being in the presence of God. Now “ hypothetically speaking ”, if I am “pure” - when I see God…I might see dancing angels around me…and if Chad is “impure”, when he sees God…he might see zombies from Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9).

Many of the Native American, Lakota visionaries…speak of experiences of the afterlife, akin to this Robin Williams movie:

#34

I really enjoyed that Robin Williams movie.

#35

Once again there is no Hell, and I say again ‘There is no Hell’

On this evangelical universalist web site I am proposing that there is no hell. Let’s see what everyone has to say…

:thinking:

#36

It’s what disqualifies me from being a universalist Chad… that I reject Universalism’s hell; the same hell they and their opponents together believe in.

#37

Bad news: there is a hell/Gehenna/Hades. It continues to this day as a POW camp for those who die in their unbelief, still captive to the devil.

Good news: hell and its occupants, along with death, will be thrown into the second death (Rev. 20:14, 1 Cor. 15:26, 55), the temporary, remedial lake of fire (as to it being temporary and remedial, see “For Further Consideration” at the end of this post)—and death will be put to death, and disappear. Those in the lake of fire will all eventually repent and surrender to Jesus because of the liberating and healing work of God’s fire of love; and one by one they will come out of it, and go through the open gates of the New Jerusalem to take the water of life freely being offered to them by the Holy Spirit and the Bride (Rev. 22:17).

Only a preterist, who does not believe in the futurity of the book of Revelation (or someone who does not believe in the reality of the devil and his ongoing, deluding influence), could suggest that there is no hell. Recently in another thread I laid out some key disagreements with preterism.

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#38

This must be from Hezekiah chapter 5 verse 13 :wink:

Gehenna and Hades are TWO distinct and different things and not one and the same.

#39

When the zombies from Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) get here…I doubt everyone, will be singing this song! :wink:

I think saying “there is no hell” and “hell is what one might experience, standing in the presence of God”…is a matter of semantics. Both really affirm, there is no literal place called hell.

Assume God is like baking soda. If water mixes with it… it’s a nice, stomach settling drink. If vinegar mixes with it, you get a volatile reaction.

Similarly, folks say people “sleep” after death. The Lakota and other shamanic visionaries, tell us differently. The spirits are all around us. Some eventually go to the “happy hunting grounds” or some likely facility, whatever that is.

And maybe…just maybe…those Brazilian churches and Native America Churches… taking peyote and/ or ayahuasca , during ceremony…might be seeing reality, as it really is…and the sacrament and/or medicine, is like a TV set…tuning to the right channel.

Sometimes a Holy Fool is like Curly Stooge…they appear to say or do things, that appear “off the wall”…but on closer examination…they might not be so “off the wall”, after all.

#40

Just as an aside - what is the ‘holy’ in ‘holy fool’?

#41

Clearly Dave it’s a typo and should read… ‘Wholly’ :rofl:

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