The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Salvation Mysteries

Evangelical Universalism
#63

Then let me clarify what I was trying to convey. Satan was tempting Peter WITH selfish ambition and greed.

As to the proof text, remember when Jesus said, “Get thee behind me Satan, YOU have not in mind the things of God but the things of men.”? What things of men? Greed and ambition.
And the disciples argued among themselves who would be the greatest in the kingdom Mark 9:34
And a woman came asking that here two sons be seated on Jesus right hand and left and the other 10 disciples were indignant when they found out. Matt 20:24

It is a well known narrative that the disciples had heart purity issues. Satan sought to sift Peter. Peter did not seek to sift Peter. Satan sought to sift Peter as wheat. He wanted to find the useful weaknesses in his heart to exploit and use Him as a tool against Jesus. He ended up with Judas because Jesus prayed for Peters faith not to fail. The bible says “Satan entered INTO Judas Iscariot.”

Yet you have not answered the most obvious and important point. Why did Jesus speak of Satan with personal pronouns such ans He and you?
As to Satan being ethereal:
“I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning” Sounds pretty ethereal. But maybe ethereal means something very very specific that no one knows but you in this case. My definition of ethereal might be wrong but if Satan fell from heaven, he fell from an ETHEREAL place no? So that would make him an ethereal being, no?

Furthermore Is not one of the great debates within historical Universalism whether or not Satan himself might be saved? Consider who has made that argument that Satan will be redeemed in the apokatastasis and tell them that they are arguing over the salvation of a non-existent being. Robin Parry? Origen?

But just so I do not continue to guess the ball under the wrong cup once again please tell me- Do you believe there is a real sentient ruler over all evil forces that shares these names- Satan, Lucifer, Devil?

If not, ok I disagree, I think there is and I see it being revealed in the bible.

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#64

STILL Mark you’re NOT reading me properly… I’m NOT denying an existent being — I’m raising the question as to WHO said satan refers to… an ethereal being or human being and or the more personal human motivations. In given contexts there is scope for seeing these latter options, as opposed to JUST seeing your ethereal being etc — which is WHY I’ve repeated a number of time now… “doesn’t automatically necessitate” — IOW, there is scope for a broader understanding; my previous Mt 25 explanation for example.

No not now… not since Satan was defeated and destroyed in Christ’s parousia.

Now IF a satan be a human as can be found in certain scriptural examples then YES such a one will know restoration. But as for your ethereal… “ruler over all evil forces” then NO. Salvation was only ever a matter for man and man alone, NOT angels…

1Pet 1:10-12 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven —things which angels desire to look into.

Heb 1:14, 2:5 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who are about to inherit salvation? … For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

All that salvation entailed was relative to man!

#66

Ive never been real strong on the whole salvation of Satan thing myself. But the existence of the argument in Universalism simply highlights that many think Satan is still out there.

But I see your position much clearer now. Satan was, but is no longer.
I don’t agree, but I will agree I have nothing outside of interpreted passages that can definitively disprove that. And as far as interpretations go, its a jump ball because its tomato tomahto. :slight_smile:

I find it fascinating to think about what a vastly different framework that creates. If Satan is destroyed, then that would mean theres no more demon possessions and no more casting out of devils, am I correct?
That would mean that no one in humanity is ever being tempted or affected or afflicted by a demonic force. Everything that looks demonic is simply an expression of human depravity.
Now you do know there is an old saying that the devils greatest lie is convincing people he doesn’t exist?
But I suppose it draws into question why the belief in Satans existence would be important if it were true, or conversely unimportant if it were not true.
All that said, I cant find a single web source from anyone asserting there is no Satan anymore.

Would you care to provide some sources on that?

#67

This is why I don’t believe in the progressive revelation theory. Many still continue to believe in old superstitious, pagan beliefs that should have been dispensed with long ago. God gave MAN dominion over the world as is stated in Genesis.

I agree. As Moses says, " See I have set before you today, life (salvation) and good, death and evil." We are not subject to some other-worldly evil being as in many pagan beliefs.
We don’t have to do rain dances or sacrifice animals for things to go well. As God told Cain, simply do good and it will go well for you. God gave man the power to change our circumstances. If it doesn’t rain, then create an irrigation system.

There never was a Satan as an other- worldly being. And yes, there still is a Satan as in evil hearts of men.

#68

OOPS. Sorry Davo, you are exactly right! (Nevertheless, Satanas as a Greek loan word for the Hebrew sâṭân is, in my evangelical view, clearly only used about a celestial being in the NT—with the debatable exception of Jesus rebuking Peter with it in Mt. 16:23, Mk. 8:33.)

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#69

Pretty much…

Blaming the devil is an age-old party trick but I think the buck stops with us… as I write about HERE.

OR, IMO more probably… cultural conditioning.

As you know… evangelicalism is full of quaint mantras.

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#71

Considered by many as a description of the archangel Lucifer:

Ezekiel 28:13-15 (NIV)
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

#72

Davo says there was a Satan person and he was destroyed. You say there never was and I and Hermano say there still is. Let no one fault us for lack of diversity.

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#73

As you know… evangelicalism is full of quaint mantras.

Oh do I ever.

#74

And this video illustrates that point!

#75

PM, Unless we want to go back to the dark ages where everyone is hanging garlic around their necks, then I think we should be teaching our children the truth. To me, this is a prime example of how the children of Israel, once enlightened by Abraham, descended into darkness. Instead of progressing they chose to cling to their old beliefs and continued to plant such seeds in the minds of their children.

#76

The scripture says the name of Jesus works much better than garlic.
I seem to remember AFTER Jesus ascended there was a certain girl who had a familiar spirit whereby she told fortunes for her master. They made money off of her powers. Paul cast the spirit out of her like this:

“She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her Acts 16:18

It would require willful ignorance on my part to say this was not a literal historical account as recorded by the physician.

.

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#77

So why don’t you tell Davo that? I was simply showing him that I understood his position.

#78

PM, No offence to you or anyone else, but Paul says this in 1Cor.13:11: “When I was a child I spoke as a child, I understood as a child and I thought as a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things.” As MM says here:

#79

So what changed? THE PAROUSIA… changed everything — what was inaugurated in Christ’s Ministry, and ratified through Christ’s Cross, was subsequently consummated at Christ’s Coming of AD70.

We can all take accountability for our own actions… no, the devil DIDN’T make you do it; but as James says… “each one is tempted when drawn aside by his own desires and enticed!”

#80

We can all take accountability for our own actions… no, the devil DIDN’T make you do it ; but as James says… “ each one is tempted when drawn aside by his own desires and enticed! ”

You quote James to prove the devil did not survive AD 70 though James preceded AD 70. This very same James said

Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

So James gave you a scripture to deny the devil and James gave me a scripture to know theres a devil. Who is confused, James?
Ah but AD 70 gave us a giant white out pen to edit the bible as we see fit.

Based on the arguments I hear in here, The devil is a convenient scapegoat for people who dont want to take responsibility, so that means Jesus, Paul, James all scapegoated the devil.

This is getting hilarious.

3 Likes
#81

No Mark you got that wrong, I didn’t quote James for that purpose… what James said (what I quoted) has always been true regardless of the parousia… I was simply pointing out that reality and NOT making the claim in terms of my position.

#82

I agree.

I don’t understand your statement. The truth is, there is no other-worldly evil being and humans are responsible for their own actions. This was known and preached BEFORE the parousia. It doesn’t seem to have changed. Many still preach and believe in the devil and there are still those who don’t.

The whole devil story sounds like some made-up movie script in which humans are just puppets in a war between God and Lucifer.

#83

LLC to Pastor Mark

And what would you attribute the tendency, of human beings to do evil and unspeakable things to? You know. The stuff you see on the TV station - Investigation Discovery (all true cases, mind you).

Well, we can say what you said…until the zombies’ of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
get here…some will say it’s science gone amok…some will say, a real devil is behind it…I personally, attribute it to both!

#84

HF, Mark 7:21 “For from within the hearts of men come evil thoughts.”
Mark 7:20 What comes out of a man is what defiles him."
Jer. 16:12 “See how each of you was following the stubbornness of his evil heart, instead of obeying Me.”

Gen 6:5 " And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Gen 8:21 “For the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”

Col.6:5 " Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed."