The Second Coming

[TreeFlower]

This topic is new to me and is causing me quite a few problems. When I’ve been told about Christianity, I’ve never had this mentioned, and sort of ignored it as an old belief, or unnecessary.

However, now I am taking Christianity seriously, I’ve been reading the Bible, and see quite a few references to Jesus coming down from the clouds and such.

I’m finding this really difficult. Now it could be that I’m just a product of my culture, where I find a literal interpretation and Jesus physically descending from the sky etc. hard to understand/believe. My instinct is to think this isn’t to be taken in a literal physical sense but in a symbolic spiritual sense, although I don’t know what. After all, writers in the New Testament predict it would occur very soon, during their lifetime, and that was almost 2000 years ago. Surely they were referring to something else, and were not mistaken? If the Holy Spirit led them to believe the Second Coming or Day of Judgement was imminent, surely it doesn’t mean a physical return with all the bells and whistles, delayed for an unimaginable time longer?

Help.

[Alex_Smith]

I’m finding this really difficult. Now it could be that I’m just a product of my culture, where I find a literal interpretation and Jesus physically descending from the sky etc. hard to understand/believe. My instinct is to think this isn’t to be taken in a literal physical sense but in a symbolic spiritual sense, although I don’t know what. After all, writers in the New Testament predict it would occur very soon, during their lifetime, and that was almost 2000 years ago. Surely they were referring to something else, and were not mistaken? If the Holy Spirit led them to believe the Second Coming or Day of Judgement was imminent, surely it doesn’t mean a physical return with all the bells and whistles, delayed for an unimaginable time longer?

Firstly, I think it’s awesome that you’re seriously engaging with this stuff for yourself. I think they’re good questions that you’re asking and I’ll try to offer some ideas.

1. Coming down from the clouds?
Traditionally it was felt God was “up there”, in the heavens i.e. sky. And given that after the Resurrection and subsequent appearances to many people, Jesus ascended into the clouds (or at least that’s the best language they could find to describe the experience), it’s not surprising they imagine He’ll descend back again in the future (although I believe it says “all eyes will see it” which seems to imply metaphorical language, unless they’re watching it happen on TV ). Personally although I strongly believe He’ll return, I’m not sure how He’ll do it.

2. Jesus coming soon (which isn’t 2000 years for most people )?
I struggled a lot with this question early last year. I think there’s a few approaches people take to this. The most common one approach I’ve heard is that “for God a 1000 years is like a day” therefore it’s “soon” from His perspective. I wouldn’t be surprised if some people think Jesus is already returned (although I’m not convinced). Does anyone know what Preterists (people who believe things were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD) think on this?

[Alex_Smith]

I reflected on this question as I was driving to work and remembered that there is a sense that He *has *returned. The Church (all the real Christians throughout the ages), by the power of the Holy Spirit is described as the “body of Christ” with Jesus as “the head”. i.e. Spiritually He is already here. Whether this is *the *“Second Coming” that is being talked of, is another matter.

[TreeFlower]

I am tempted to see it in a spiritual view of Jesus returns IN us, as the Church, yet when I read the Bible itself I find this hard to stick to as it seems to be written as something so literal. I’m finding this difficult.

[Gem]

I am tempted to see it in a spiritual view of Jesus returns IN us, as the Church

I see it that way, TF, and its refreshing to me that you are searching the Scriptures for your answers instead of just adopting the popular view.

Luke 17:20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[a] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Col 1:26-27 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery. . . which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

The Pharisees were waiting for a Messiah and they didn’t recognize Him when He came because they had all these preconceived notions about what His coming would look like. IMO, the book of Revelation is symbolic. Those who turn it into a worldly kingdom political drama are just as distracted from the truth right under their noses as the ancient Pharisees IMO.

[AllanS]

I reflected on this question as I was driving to work and remembered that there is a sense that He *has *returned. The Church (all the real Christians throughout the ages), by the power of the Holy Spirit is described as the “body of Christ” with Jesus as “the head”. i.e. Spiritually He is already here. Whether this is *the *“Second Coming” that is being talked of, is another matter.

I agree. I’m quite agnostic on the matter. One thing is certain. I’ll be dead as a dodo sometime within the next few decades. My guess is: I will go to him before he comes to me. Or perhaps my going will be his coming.

[TreeFlower]

The thing is, I would agree with you all on this being symbolic/spiritual, and it DOES make much more sense to me, but the Bible seems to really spell it out as Jesus coming from the clouds and such- one woman is left, one is taken, you can;t go back into your house to collect belongings- it sounds like a real, physical event which we should be vigilant for, and it also sounds like the writers honestly believed it was imminent. But this also can’t be true, can it- they were guided by the Holy Spirit, who would not have mislead them if it was going to take at least 2000 years longer. I must be missing something!

[Love_s_Refrain]

I agree that it definitely is depicted as a real event that will happen, with ‘warning’ signs for those that know to look out for it, while to others Jesus will come “as a thief in the night”. Also, what about phrases such as "Behold, I am coming soon"etc. Why would we need to be so watchful? It also seems as though this flawed world must be finally and fully restored - not sure what the precipitating event would be if not a physical return of Christ.

Having said all this, calculations about exact dates I find somewhat dubious!

Is it the use of the word “soon” that is your biggest stumbling-block when considering this issue, TreeFlower? Does Alex’s suggestion help here? I guess in relation to how long the universe has existed for, a few thousand years might not seem such a long interval?

[AllanS]

I suspect the one woman being taken etc was more to do with the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD than with some end of the world scenario. Jesus gave us the time-frame. “This generation will not pass away till all these things have been fulfilled.” We therefore have to ask ourselves “What actually happened within a generation of Jesus?”

[Gem]

The thing is, I would agree with you all on this being symbolic/spiritual, and it DOES make much more sense to me, but the Bible seems to really spell it out as Jesus coming from the clouds and such- one woman is left, one is taken, you can;t go back into your house to collect belongings- it sounds like a real, physical event which we should be vigilant for, and it also sounds like the writers honestly believed it was imminent.

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

So, I’m out in the field working away with my neighbor and I drop dead of a heart attack. I’m taken, my neighbor is left, and I didn’t even have time to go back to the house to collect belongings!

No one knows the hour when the trumpet will sound and s/he will be taken up with the Lord.

I think everyone experiences Tribulation in their life and everyone battles antichrist/beast. Not a generation has lived who has not seen earthquakes, wars, and rumors of wars. We ALL are marked with 666 which is man’s imperfection, man’s falling short, missing the mark. The sacred number seven is perfection. 666 is a trinity of imperfections.

But we shall overcome:

“And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark[a]and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.” Rev 15:2

You see, I had that mark of the beast, but through Jesus, I overcome.

[Joen]

I have recently given thought to the idealist perspective, especially on Revelation. I have ordered Stephen Smalley’s book on Revelation through amazon. I think partial preterism comes across as the most sensible approach, but I have a serious problem in God being so angry with 1st century jewry as Preterism suggests.

[Gem]

Joen,

What is the “idealist perspective”?

I don’t think Revelation is about an event which happened in 70. I think its an “everyman” Revelation. We ALL have an internal battle between Christ and antichrist/beast.

of the Beast, there’s this riddle “who was and is not and will not be”
Carnal man-666- fits right in

of Christ “who was and is and ever shall be”
may we all be conformed to His image!

The Abomination of Desolation in the Temple. My body is the Temple. The heart of a man who has excluded Christ and exalted the man of sin to the Throne is Desolate indeed.

[Joen]

It sure sounds like you are an idealist . So the various judgments in the book is inner struggles? How do you understand the white throne?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism_( … schatology

preteristarchive.com/Idealism/index.html

[Gem]

I’ll have to look at the passages and give it some thought, Joen. (which may take some time as I am in the thick of it with full time school, etc)

What are your thoughts on it?

I know that God impressed upon me the **intimacy **of the overcomer, sitting beside Jesus in His throne in Rev 3:21 and contrary to the way I always heard it,Rev 3:20 is not an “evangelistic” verse, it is an invitation to THE CHURCH to partake of intimacy with Jesus.

[Joen]

Hi Gem, I also think Rev 3v20 is about the Church, the elect. It’s similar to John 6v44, you have to able to listen to Christ.

Right now I dont know much about Idealism. My main hope is that Idealism will provide me with a better understanding of Revelation. I understand that Idealism sees the book as you describe, about every one.