The Evangelical Universalist Forum

the security of uncertainty

Theology Philosophical
#1

:astonished: I’ve been thinking lately and it was sparked by the comment that ‘‘the more I learn the more I realise the less I know’’

now I want to make it clear that my previous comments along the lines of - some theories make more sense than others and some things can be factually verified, still holds true for me but I would like to put forward the idea, that perhaps

blindness is in some ways more of a blessing than a curse :bulb: I got to the point along time ago where I said to myself that none of these experts seem to agree on anything so what makes me so certain I’m right ! so perhaps in some ways just accepting uncertainty actually give one the security one craves ! then again for those of you who are quick to condemn those who are certain !,need to also consider the reverse is validlly true, and that is those who condemn those who insist uncertainty should be more closely adhered to, need to consider that there may well be a range of reasons why there are those who are certain, just as much as there are a range of reasons why there are those who are less certain !, either way perhaps uncertainty is a liberating thing after-all :smiley:

I mean if absolute certainty in the here and now is almost a must, then why did the good Lord make it with the degree of complexity that he did ? so absolute truth still holds true but the ability to ‘‘see’’
will vary from person to person and for various reasons !, so perhaps the inability to see is a blessing rather than a curse ‘‘in that’’ I am less guilty instead of more guilty !, while I believe there is some degree of certainty to be gained through theology, perhaps the degree of uncertainity is somewhat more desirable !, of one thing I can take absolute certainty in, and that is that, the kind of GOD of the GOD of universalism can be trusted absolutely, of that one thing you can be certain.

further to this and somewhat related is the inner struggle, that GOD for some of us is
(it would appear) forever silent, perhaps this should be also viewed in a positive light ? that one should be grateful for not seeing, not hearing, not feeling. :wink:

#2

Hi Stuart. For me this uncertainty “HURTS”. Really.

Not every second of my day is planned out, nor do I always know what I’m going to do this weekend, I know this is not the uncertainty we are talking about. When I think about God and life, there is just this uncomfortable tightness in my chest. Uncertainty about Who God is, what He is like, how He sees me, life beyond death…It’s SO HARD to not be certain. So hard to leave it open ended. It seems against my (and probably all humans) nature. We can’t help but want answers and the fact that we are left scratching our heads about THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS just seems so wrong! It’s a constant fight to be ok with uncertainty.

I have often wondered if many who just continue to accept a generic, pre-fab belief system do so to escape the pain of uncertainty. Hmmmm. I feel both sad for them and envious of them at the same time. :slight_smile:

Sass

#3

hmm yeah, well… I used to be really indecisive, but now I’m not so sure. :mrgreen:

#4

I guess I was attempting to get across a mental blanket if you will !, the idea that to be uncertain, must to some extent be viewed as a blessing.

#5

:laughing:

#6

That is absolutely true. :laughing:

It seems to me that it is natural for people to go with their intuition rather than to think beyond their intuition.

For example, our intuition tells us that the repeating decimal .999… is just a little bit less than 1.

But it can be proved that it is exactly equal to 1. Here is the proof:

Let n = .999…

Multiply each side of the equation by 10
Thus 10n = 9.999…

Now subtract n or its equivalent from each side of this equation.
Thus 9n=9

Therefore n=1

#7

You aren’t guilty at all, Stuart. Just thought I should point that out – the flesh is condemned to death and is, in Christ, put to death and the life you now live you live by faith in the Son of God, etc. So is that a license to be a slave to sin? God forbid! :laughing: (I am still struggling with understanding this.)

But your point is well taken. There are a lot of things we can’t know yet, but we do know Jesus. And will know Him better. That’s the important thing. And when we begin to see His perfect love, that is the moment and the degree to which fear departs. Fear, not hate, is the opposite of love, and love MUST cast out fear. Not our love; His love. Our love is none other than the reflection of the love with which He loves us.

#8

:sunglasses:

#9

but I think the implications of this subtle philosophical approach has escaped you

the good people of this world who are blind yet do the very things … ? :smiley:

#10

You’re probably right . . . I can be dense as lead – I’m afraid you’ll have to spell it out for me . . . :blush:

#11

don’t put yourself down Cindy :wink: does my above answer point you in the right direction ?

#12

No . . . sorry

#13

the good people of this world who are blind yet do the very things … ?

there are a good amount of beautiful people in this world who don’t yet believe but by their very natures come closer to the spirit of the verse ‘‘love thy neighbour’’ than some christians do !, yet they are ‘‘blind’’ perhaps that means for them a blessing :wink:

#14

Okay, I get you.

I don’t know, Stuart. I’m not real cut and dried about that. On the one hand, I know and believe that the Holy Spirit gives us the knowledge we need and are ready for as appropriate. You wouldn’t teach a 9 year old boy how to drive your car (well, at least you probably shouldn’t teach most 9 year old boys that). However you would most likely be remiss in NOT teaching him once he reaches some degree of responsible behavior and development. Paul chides someone – um, the Ephesians, maybe? – for needing to still be fed on milk when they should be eating meat and teaching others. So there is a stage of development that Father intends us to get to. The young ones (for what ever legitimate reason they are yet undeveloped) aren’t expected to know the “hard stuff,” and that’s fine. But it doesn’t follow that it’s an advantage to be kept in a state of immaturity and lack of knowledge. Otherwise, why would Jesus say, “I have many other things to tell you, but you’re not able to bear them now” and that the Holy Spirit would reveal these deeper things at the right time?

I was just finishing up Romans 7 this morning, and thinking about how the people who received the law had greater knowledge than those who had only the natural law. God gave them just a little bit more than most others had. Of course they didn’t do anything of advantage with that knowledge. In fact, God only gave them the law after they had begged Him not to talk to them any more “lest we die”, and instead to communicate with them through Moses and tell them what they needed to do, and they would do it. I see, in my imagination, God shaking his head slowly and rolling His eyes. “They couldn’t keep the law written in their own DNA and now they want more law? Well okay, here we go again.” The law “made sin exceedingly sinful” because first, it shone a bright light on it, exposing it, and second, it took away the excuses of those who heard and accepted it. Now they KNEW what was wrong. I think that may be part of what you mean, and you do have a point.

Nevertheless, the law isn’t what God really wants from us. The Israelites couldn’t keep the law, and Father knew that. He gave it to them so that THEY would know it. So while the law only led to greater sin and ultimately death, it was still a necessary step in our development. As for the “holy pagans” who do what’s right by nature, I do believe God rewards them for that. His reward is most likely something along the lines of revealing Jesus to them in a broader way, whether by name or by nature. This doesn’t necessarily bring bondage and condemnation (at least not in the long run).

Sin was in the world before the law came, but it wasn’t imputed/counted against people. It doesn’t say who does the counting, btw, and I wonder if it isn’t the people themselves who do it to themselves (ourselves) since God has always intended to take away the sins of the world. But that aside, I don’t think Father is really pleased with a lot of unruly pre-schoolers pounding on one another and treating one another in other unloving ways, even if the truly don’t know any better. He doesn’t hold it against them, but He does want them to stop and start behaving in loving, self-sacrificing ways.

So it’s necessary that we do learn (at some point) what’s right (loving) and what’s wrong (fearful, or unloving, which is probably more or less the same thing). He wants us mature daughters and sons, not innocent, if unruly, unaccountable children. While it’s good to be at the stage of development Father has placed you at, it’s not good to stay there, just so that you’ll be blameless if you do some things wrong. And since He is forgiving no matter what, and only desires our conformation to the image of His One mature Son, Jesus, staying in that immature state is against His will. At some point, we’ll all (ignorant and knowledgeable) have to move beyond that into the next stage of development.

Now that might not be at all what you were getting at, and it probably isn’t where you were coming from. But I’ve been thinking about it for quite a while as I’ve been studying Romans, and it helps to write it down and even get others’ take on it. So what do you think? Does this apply to your thesis? Does it sound right to you (even if I’m unintentionally way off-topic)?

I’m hugely enjoying Romans, btw. I’ve been meaning for a long time to take the time and effort to begin to understand it. It’s like a treasure chest packed with living, glowing treasure, once you start to look more closely. :smiley:

Blessings, Cindy

#15

ok let me elaborate :exclamation: :smiley: and I am directly quoting from the book ‘‘hell and eternity it’s all greek to me’’ ‘‘even though I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a man of violence. but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of the Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. the saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners - of whom I am the foremost. But for that very reason I received mercy, so that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display the upmost patience, making me an example to those who would come to believe in him for eternal life.’’ Paul here is saying that he received mercy BECAUSE he acted in ignorance and unbelief Paul actually directly refutes this ‘‘ignorance is no excuse’’ argument and says that the ignorant not only receive mercy, but receive it because they act in ignorance.

the general gist of my ‘‘more guilty…’’ statements are not without biblical warrant :smiley: But I hope this makes things a tad clearer

#16

here’s hoping this conversation is reignited and sparks the interest of others :cry: , what exactly ‘‘IS’’ the gospel ? I mean what exactly did the very early christians preach ? (setting aside the all men are saved scenario) :smiley: lets just say for the sake of the argument that we can’t arrive at a consensus ( :wink: as is the most likely outcome) perhaps even that is a blessing :astonished:

#17

Hi, Stuart

I intended to reply, but then I didn’t have time, and so of course . . . . I forgot. :blush:

I’d have to study the semantics here in the original language and the context and alas, I need to hurry up to my pottery studio as soon as I finish my beans because I need to make a handle for a teapot I just got out of the kiln and sand the bases of some of my new pots. (I have a show this weekend)

That said, Paul can’t mean that he only received mercy because of his ignorance. If that was what he meant, it would mean that people who aren’t ignorant won’t receive mercy (unless they receive it for some other reason). Of course you could argue that all people who haven’t yet repented and believed the gospel ARE ignorant in one way or another, or else they would be following Jesus. IE, they might not know who He is, really. They might not even know about Him. They might not know that He is worth giving up their sins for. They might not know (truly know) that He is the only way to love and joy and peace. They might not know He exists and not have the understanding to even begin to believe (atheists/agnostics). There are all kinds of ignorance we might have. So if you’re going with THAT angle, then I suppose that everyone who has yet to receive His mercy IS ignorant – all of them – because if they knew better, they would have received His mercy. :laughing: :wink:

Love in Jesus, Cindy

#18