The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"The Skeletons in God's Closet" (Joshua Ryan Butler)

Studies Books
#1

This is (for now) a temporary placeholder for a book review/ discussion spot I intend for this book when I finish it. I’m about halfway through it now; one of the main reasons it interested me is that it was written by a young up and coming leader in a local congregation; the other was that he appeared to have a “fresh” take on hell, which is supposedly one of the “Skeletons in God’s closet” topics in Christianity today (well, ok; it is).

When I get sufficiently far into the book to make sure I understand his full view (he hasn’t got to the LOF yet), then I’ll post some kind of review here, at least on the part of the book where he mainly addresses the question of hell. I have to say that I’m a bit disappointed so far…
While I think what he has to say goes a long way toward debunking the “traditional” view, I’m not sure that his solution is much better by our standards (or indeed, the scripture’s). I’ll have more to say about that later.

#2

Meh. I was going to take the time to review at least a portion of this book, but with confirmation of our move to Scotland shortly, there’s just no time. Suffice it to say that his views on hell are similar enough to C.S. Lewis’ as to be virtually indistinguishable. :confused:

#3

Well . . . they say CS was moving closer to CU but he died. He’s probably crossed over by now. :wink: This guy is young, you say? He’s got time – probably – maybe worth keeping an eye on him.

#4

Amazon had about 50 raters give it collectively about 4.2 out of 5 stars. The reviews were also pretty interesting and positive - for the most part. I’ll put it on my list for 2015 and see if my local library can obtain it. As one reviewer said about one skeleton,

This week I finished watching Revelation: the end of days on the History channel. Interesting and dramatic enactment show on how the world might end. I can just say this. Those in the US won’t like who the anti-Christ is and those advocating pacifism won’t like the Christian militia group heroes.

#5

Yeah, he’s a bit younger than me.
Possibly, but he spent way too much of the book defending things that don’t really need defending, IMO; although some of what he said on some topics was insightful and helpful. And his argument against universalism was as weak as it was brief.

So it’s certainly possible, but he’s got a way to go from what I can see.

#6

He’s questioning though. If he keeps it up . . . . :wink: Asking questions is never a bad thing.

#7

Randal Rauser’s been reviewing the book if anyone’s interested. Here’s his review of Butler’s section on hell randalrauser.com/2014/12/the-mer … et-part-1/

Seems to be a fairly lightweight dismissal both of universalism and annihilationism from the looks of it

On universalism

On annihilationism

As opposed to the view Butler seems to hold which is “I’ll give you a little chance to marry me but after that I’ll give up and let you waste away uncontrollably, getting progressively worse forever and ever.”

Greater love has no one than this, to let someone out of their ‘free will’ waste away forever :wink:

#8

It seems Bulter has questions about God’s time table for restoration. And I agree that the timetable is a factor to consider. Does God plan for an eternity for people to come to him? This question is asked by Dr. Timothy Dalrymple in A Framework for Understanding the Rob Bell Controversy.

Or do we come up with this answer in Question: “Is annihilationism biblical?” from the Got Questions Protestant site:

Or we can take this view extract from What is Orthodox Hell?

In Universalism in the Orthodox Church, we find these interesting statements:

But we must get back to the key questions:

How do we experience God’s love in hell?

or

Or (in the Bulter review)

Perhaps it is the Dark Night of the Soul of St John of the Cross.

What is God’s real time table?
What happens after God’s timetable has expired - if it has an expiration date?

The Bulter review says this:

But Revelation: the end of days on the History channel, has the answer to parts 2 and 3:

A video for everyone. Because sometimes it’s fun to be contrary…just to be contrary.

#9

Or alternatively, “hell” doesn’t have anything to do with the afterlife.

Jesus always couched these things in terms of being inside or outside of the kingdom. But the kingdom’s king quits that role at the end, once everything is under his feet, because there is no longer any need for the “kingdom” (God is all in all). Death and hell are done away with in the process of getting to that point.

#10

When I consider the lake of fire, or Gehenna,(hell being sheol, the grave and not the lake of fire or gehenna) in terms of how long it could possibly take for the “last enemy”, death, to be nullified so that God becomes ALL IN ALL, I look at it like this.

In Revelations John sees Jesus, His eyes are as flames of fire and a sharp sword is coming out of His mouth.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Jesus said He would separate the wheat from the chaff and thoroughly purge His threshing floor, gathering the wheat and purging the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Separating the wheat from the chaff is how i see the lake of fire. Separating, gathering, purging.

God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all, so light is fire to darkness.

God is love, and Our God is a consuming fire.

Throughout the ages evrything that is of darkness, that is not of love, is being consumed in the fire/light/love of God. It is the living word, the sharp two edged sword that rends the veils of self and brings every hidden thing to light- before the eyes of Jesus( their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.)

Believers are already in the Day. Unbelievers have yet to come into the Day. (Every man will be salted with fire and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt)

Every grain of wheat has seed and chaff. “Brokeness” or repentance, i.e. yielding to God happens in a variety of ways but it all involves being pierced by the word.

I think the fire in Gehenna, or the LOF is the same fire that is in the eyes of Jesus, and it consumes darkness, as light is fire to darkness, by the operation of the living word upon the ones held there, where they will be punished/corrected/separated “in the presence of God and His holy angels”.

In 1 Cor 3 we see that fire consumes the wood hay and stubble,15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This again I see like wheat separated from chaff. “He himself”, the seed of the wheat is gathered into one in Christ, the chaff is burnt up with unquenchable fire(nullified, destroyed).

For believers I think this happens as we live(fiery trials purify faith) and at the judgement seat of Christ (where we must each give account for our deeds in the body).

For those whose names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life(“the Lord knows those who are His”, 2 Timothy 2) this occurs in the lake of fire, which imo is not a lake of molten lava or whatever. It is a metaphor for an experience of aionian kolassis that awaits the wicked in the age to come, about which we are not given definitive details, but are given insight into its nature if we look for it.

I think it is a divine intervention held in the midst of the general assembly of Hebrews 12., and may even represent an age to come.

“The court convened and the thrones were sat upon and the books were opened”…“Know you not the saints shall judge the world?..know you not that you shall judge angels?”

But whatever it is exactly, some will receive few stripes, some will receive many stripes, no one will get out until they have paid the last penny. IMO, the last penny is described in Philippians 2:9,10- "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on eart or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

When the last knee has bowed and the last tongue confessed and the last adversary subjected and reconciled, then death will be nullified/abolished and God will be all in all. That is when death is swallowed up by immortality and time will be no more(imo)

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.

#11

You know what’s interesting about the Bulter book review? It’s not the review in and of itself, but the comments and discussions afterwards - some by actual or hopeful universalists. You might enjoy A Prepper’s Review of History Channel’s Revelation: The End of Days

#12

I will check it out; sounds interesting…

Edit: So I went and read it, as well as the comments section.
Randal makes some excellent points in the post, and I don’t really think that Josh’s rebuttal (if that’s what he intended it to be) there in the comments does much to diffuse them. I understand the point he was trying to make, but that really doesn’t excuse intentional or unintentional straw-manning. This stuff is too important to be that careless with, IMO. I still don’t think his idea of “containment” really works.

#13

I’m reading this book now. Well, not right now, I’m typing this post right now. But I bought the book Thursday and have read a good portion of it.

Very interesting.

#14

Here’ are some interesting reviews I’ve found on the first page of Google:

Review 1
Review 2
Review 3

#15

Butler’s writing some blogs on the Patheos site, summing up his arguments for each of the three sections.

This is the one on the mercy of hell patheos.com/blogs/theologyin … y-of-hell/

This is the one on the surprise of judgement patheos.com/blogs/theologyin … -judgment/

I left a couple of comments on his latest one - he seems to be holding massively contradictory ideas on the purpose of judgement (the purpose of the judgement, he says, being to make humanity whole again, whilst he simultaneously believes that the judgement involves handing sinners over for precisely the opposite thing). He has written an interesting reply to me on what he means when he says humanity, which you can all see on the blog, but I’m unconvinced.

#16

I got the following from Joshua’s website under the heading popular speaking topics:

( joshuaryanbutler.com/speaking/ )

Sounds like he’s getting dangerously close to UR.

Mike

#17

Hi Mike

He is definitely closer to UR than he thinks, he just hasn’t added up the logic yet, I don’t think. He argues that God’s judgement is intended to heal broken humanity and make them whole, yet on the other hand argues that God’s judgement towards the unrepentant part of that humanity is to hand them over to themselves and their brokenness and ‘un-wholeness’ permanently for all eternity. So you have God bringing about judgement to make humanity ‘whole’ by allowing and handing some of humanity over to themselves for precisely the opposite result!

Then he caricatures universalism as God saying “Marry me or I’ll lock you in the basement until you learn to love me” when his own view is basically God saying “Marry me or I’ll let you waste away in rebellion and devastation forever”.

I’ve heard his book is really good and I’d like to read it because he seems like a very nice guy who knows his stuff but he’s totally inconsistent on this in my opinion.

#18

I see what you mean, Johnny.

Logically inconsistent.

I don;t like his picture of UR as “Marry me or I’ll lock you in the basement until you learn to love me”. I hope that doesn’t become a popular impression of what UR is.

Mike

#19

It’s better than just ignoring it I guess or passing it off as making God a passive, tolerant God who doesn’t care about sin

#20

Just a quick thought, here, but if God created us, loves us, saves us, and sustained us, then, when we see Him face to face, I think it safe to say, we will all recognize Him. He has always been with us…whether we acknowledge that, recognize it, or don’t. He is well known for looking for the lost and for sinners. (which we all are) Therefore, we have all been running/walking towards Him or away from HIm, or avoiding Him. So, with that recognition, will come an awareness of who we have been and are, in HIm. And, we will realize and accept, what the next step is for us, to prepare us for Heaven.

I really don’t think there will be any need to lock anyone in a basement. :wink: The face of God, I believe, will do the convincing, for everyone. :bulb:

for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known; 1 Corinthians 13:12