The Evangelical Universalist Forum

the temple of the Holy Spirit

Theology Eschatology
#1

For those of you that have a futurist perspective (I’m not sure if my terminology is correct). Something similar to the Left Behind series, details as to whether its pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib etc. aren’t the point here of this post. (I didn’t know anything but pre-trib rapture my whole life and thought people were crazy for believing anything else)

How do you rectify the whole end time scenario with the fact that:
1 Co 6:19, 3:16 say: you are the temple of the Holy Spirit

Acts 7:48, 17:24 say: God does not dwell in temples built with human hands

Mark 14:58 ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands and in three days build another not made with hands.’”

Eph 2:22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 Pet 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The whole “end-time” scenario is centered around a literal stone temple being built, and a literal idol being set up in the HOH, the abomination of desolation by a literal anti-christ.

If the above is true that God does not dwell in human built temples, then how can the temple be defiled? Even if people build a literal temple in Jerusalem, God does not dwell there as spoken in Acts. If God doesn’t dwell there, then why would He care about a literal idol being set up there?

#2

Anyone? I won’t even argue with you :slight_smile: These passages were like Romans 5 while I held to ECT. I would read them and think why would God have another temple if we are the temple. But then just like I did with the Romans 5 passages I’d just revert to what I “knew”.

I’d kind of like it to be true, since I’ve spent 30 years believing it. The world events seem to fit. Those verses just seem to be stumbling blocks for me toward that view.

#3

I don’t necessarily ascribe to a futuristic view of Revelation, but I don’t deny it either. I could see a possible literal fulfillment of the vision along with a spiritual fulfillment as well.

Sonia

#4

Christians prior to 300 A.D. were what today’s theologians would call “historic pre-millenialists” They were also “post-tribulationists” with respect to the coming of Christ. But they didn’t believe in the “literal stone temple” being restored in the end-times.

#5

They also didn’t believe in the literal Israel being reborn.

No, I think there is the spiritual (the main show) fulfillment and also the literal fulfillment. It’s been a while since I studied any of this sort of thing, but I don’t remember anywhere that the bible (or anyone else I knew of) said that God would inhabit the temple built by the end-times Israel. Just that it would be built and defiled (in the eyes of its builders, anyway). The building of it would seem appropriate to religious Jews, and the defilement would be a genuine defilement to them. There are certainly religious Jews who are planning for a rebuild. Israel came back though it was impossible. I believe they will also build a temple (though also impossible.)

Why should scripture not be literally fulfilled? Anyone can point to a spiritual fulfillment. That only impresses believers. What if Jesus had only performed spiritual healings? No one can see that. What if Jesus had only come spiritually? Or been figuratively born in Bethlehem? Or metaphorically been called out of Egypt? No, the prophesies must also be fulfilled literally. It only makes sense.

#6

But whats literal? A literal beast coming out of the sea? Are people everywhere going to worship a literal idol? How can it be the abomination that causes desolation if its not actually Gods dwelling place?

#7

I said I won’t argue, so I hope my previous post isn’t coming off that way. I’m trying to gain understanding. I do believe Jesus is going to return, not outside of us, but that we will receive the fullness, we have the down payment now. And when this takes place it is the manifestation of the sons of God. I just don’t have any clarity to what, when, how that looks like. Like I said I was a pre-trib rapture person my whole life, read the whole left behind series. Now all I can see is the manifestation, and I don’t know how any other events fit in if at all.

Paidon, could you provide some reference to christians before 300 a.d. being pre-millenial. I don’t need primary sources, your synopsis would be fine.

#8

Hi, RHM

I sort of thought you’d say that, only I had in mind the locusts with the crowns and all :wink: rather than the beast coming from the sea. In the case of Israel and the temple, I think literal is reasonable. (Since the temple hasn’t yet been rebuilt, I freely admit I could be wrong about that, but as Israel has in fact been reborn, it kind of makes me think the temple might be, too.) Antiochus Epiphanes literally sacrificed a pig on the altar (that’s from memory, and I hope I’m getting it right) and John restates this prophecy, which has in a very real way, already been fulfilled. Does he mean it only figuratively? It’s already happened both literally and figuratively once. Both the altar and the nation have been defiled. Why not again?

It seems to me that prophetic fulfillments are like labor pains. There’s a lot of labor that happens before the child is actually born. The labor is real (even the “false” labor), but it isn’t ultimate. You see something like a fulfillment, but it doesn’t fit ALL the details. There were many types and shadows of Jesus in the Old Testament, and these in a sense fulfilled God’s prophecy to Eve of the son that would bruise the serpent’s head, but they didn’t fulfill it completely. There was yet a Son to come.

There are reasonable limits to what can be considered literal. A literal beast isn’t going to crawl out of a literal sea, just like a literal giant ram didn’t trample the other animals (whatever they were – I forget). Daniel’s prophecies are pretty transparent, looking backward, and so literally accurate (despite their figurative expression) that historians assume on that basis that Daniel was written at a much later date. Alas for them, his prophecies concerning Jesus were even more minutely accurate, and no one can pretend that Daniel was written AD whatever.

Prophecy is a fascinating subject to explore and to discuss. It’s important that we don’t specialize in Jesus AND anything, though. Obviously I don’t think it’s wrong to look into prophecy, but it is a mistake to focus on end times and looking for the man of perdition, etc. It’s even wrong to let our focus rest on UR. Our focus must ALWAYS be on Jesus plus nothing. Jesus is EVERYTHING. He contains all these things, and as long as we remember that it’s Him we’re seeking, it’s fine (and even good) to explore them.

We (I) need to remember particularly concerning future prophecy, that we’re almost certainly wrong in our interpretation. I would never be dogmatic about my interpretation of any future prophecy. So yeah . . . my point is that I know I’m at least partially wrong in a lot of my thoughts on eschatology and I’m okay with that. We can still discuss our views and explore that aspect of Christ together, disagreeing and still loving one another as brothers and sisters in Christ must do.

Blessings, Cindy

#9

I have a futuristic perspective and i am also a believer in a pre-trib rapture.

I am probably not the best person to answer this question tho…but probably because of what it represents. Plus the fact that it’s in Jerusalem…the land of God’s chosen people…etc…

Much of Revelation is not literal, that is obvious, but some of it is. I believe in a literal antichrist as being a real person. Also, taking the mark of the beast in the right hand is literal. I believe it could very well be the RFID chip. The one they are planning to chip the world with in the very near future, with plans as soon as 2012. One will not be able to buy or sell without it, just like scripture says. I dont believe there will be a mark/chip in the forehead, i think that is where it’s more of an oath to the antichrist. The plans are already in the making to rebuild the temple, either/or they have already started.

I don’t know how much help i was… :blush: That said, we are still in the end times none the less.Too much proof of end times prophecy being fulfilled in the world right now to think any other way. :wink:

#10

Well, I was raised on Left Behind, read it throughout my teens, eagerly awaiting the release of each new book. Personally, I haven’t believed in the ‘rapture’ for years. I believe in the day of the Lord, with the resurrection of the dead and our gathering together to Him for judgement. I’ve just not seen any good biblical or historical support for belief in a pretrib rapture. It is not something that you would come away with simply from reading the text. That said, if my memory serves me correctly, I think the point of the temple rebuilding scenario was that that itself was a desecration of God. To reinstate sacrifices, belief in God’s presense dwelling in the temple etc, was insulting to the final sacrifice of Christ and the Spirit of God dwelling inside every believer. The Antichrist would purposely build the temple in that knowledge, and then in even further blasphemy, would desecrate it and declare himself god there. I think the point is supposed to be that the man of lawlessness is trying to usurp God on every level, take the place of God wherever he can and particularly become the object of man’s worship.

Re the end times though. Haven’t every generation thought they were living in the end times? Haven’t they all seen clear signs that they are in the last days? How are we any different? I can’t help but think that the day of the Lord comes when we least expect it, so if we all think we are in that time now, it is unlikely to be anytime soon. I guess we just have to follow His advice, to always live as though tomorrow is the day of His coming

#11

Here is a quote from Justin Martyr’s “Dialogue With Trypho,” just at the end of chapter 80:

But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

#12

Well, the historical church fathers and historical creeds, envision a future return of Christ. And different, unrelated folks…see prophesies and visions, of the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. Now the question remains, whether the zombies seen… are literal or symbolic – of a deeper meaning. Because others like Tiffany Clark, see visions with no literal zombies at Armageddon. But I present them, in the context of the AMC shows - The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead.

However, ANY visions are hard to interpret. And Revelations has a TON - of professional and amateur opinions. And it should be noted, that Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy and many Protestant denomination…do not believe in the rapture.

#13

Chaque a son gout!

#14

Food for thought.

Matt 4:5.+ Matt 23:1.

1/…The Temple/ The Jewish Temple at Jerusalem built with human hands.

Strong’s Concordance

hieron: temple.

Original Word: ἱερόν, οῦ, τό

Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter

Transliteration: hieron

Phonetic Spelling: (hee-er-on’)

Definition: temple

Usage: a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers.

2/…The sacred part of the Jewish Temple at Jerusalem.

Strong’s Concordance

naos: a temple

Original Word: ναός, οῦ, ὁ

Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: naos

Phonetic Spelling: (nah-os’)

Definition: a temple

Usage: a temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides.

Also a metaphor of the spiritual temple, built without hands,consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in
Christ :- Acts7:48 / 1 Corinthians 6:19 / jhon2:19.

2 Thessalonians 2:3.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the [TEMPLEL] of God, showing himself that he is God.

The Greek word used here is not the Greek word [Hieron] as in Matt 4:5 +Matt 3:21. The word used is [Naos] this is almost always used as the metaphor for the bodily Temple were God through his spirit now dwells. When we link this to the great falling away paul was warning about, it could be assumed he wasn’t talking about a literal temple but the spiritual temple of believers. And just maybe it is the man of sin who will deceive many believers, and take his place in the spiritual temple, BRFORE he is revealed.