The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Temple, the Antichrist, and the Structure of Revelation

As you point out, the Medes and the Persians worked in concert. (It may well be that Cyrus and Darius were actually relatives.) That is why their kingdom is usually referred to as the “Medo-Persian” kingdom, with a hyphen, instead of just the Persian kingdom. The Medes and the Persians are so closely associated as to be indistinguishable, at least, prophetically. The Medes and Persians shared ONE law:

Daniel 6:8, 12, 15
8 Now, Your Majesty, issue the decree and put it in writing so that it cannot be altered—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.”

12 So they went to the king and spoke to him about his royal decree: “Did you not publish a decree that during the next thirty days anyone who prays to any god or human being except to you, Your Majesty, would be thrown into the lions’ den?”

The king answered, “The decree stands—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.”

15 Then the men went as a group to King Darius and said to him, “Remember, Your Majesty, that according to the law of the Medes and Persians no decree or edict that the king issues can be changed.”

Again, this close association is why the Medo-Persian empire is prophetically represented as ONE entity:

-as two silver arms (Dan. 2)
-as a bear with two sides (Dan. 7)
-as a ram with two horns (Dan. 8)

I think you are proving the very point of why God would see the need to repeat certain things to us, sometimes using different illustrations, to help us to understand complicated things He’s trying to say. After all, His prophets had to use the vocabulary of their day when trying to address believers down through the coming generations, even those of us living thousands of years later.

Let me reiterate here that the less-than-perfect author of Revelation did likewise, with God sometimes showing him the same thing more than once: Revelation chapters 4 to 11 chronologically present events from the first Rapture until the Second Coming, and Revelation 12 to 19 offer a non-chronological recapitulation of the same events—with new perspectives and added details. (Please see my suggested Revelation chart, as well as my discussion of the structure of Revelation in the original post.)

I don’t see this as a “problem,” therefore, why would I have addressed it? Again: in Daniel 7, God repeats with animals to a new king (and to us) what he had already said using a statue to show a previous king (and to us) in Daniel 2. God was symbolically laying out, in broad strokes, the political power from the time of Daniel all the way until the Second Coming.

Then who is falling away from what in 2 Thes. 2:3? (Perhaps it has to do with people defecting from…Islam?!)

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB)
Let no one in any way deceive YOU [Christians], for it will not come unless the apostasy [Strong’s G646, Gr. apostasía: turning away, falling away, rebellion, defection, forsaking] comes first, and [comparatively soon thereafter] the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Apostasy is related to the idea of divorce— apostásion [Strong’s G647], a noun derived from the verb aphistēmi [G868: turn away, fall away, withdraw self, depart from].

Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away [aphistēmi] from the living God.

Apostatizing Christians had formerly held (or, perhaps, still profess to hold) a personal relationship with Jesus: but they can’t fall from a place they never occupied.

The results of apostasy (from the true faith, since the Bible is warning believers) seem to be what Jesus has in mind here:

Luke 18:8 (NIV)
“I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Again, the idea of apostasy from the true faith [into fabricated stories and legalism] is warned against here:

Colossians 2:18-20 (NKJV)
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and NOT holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, WHY, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

As a side note, I no longer believe that someone who was genuinely born again—even if he goes into error and sin—can lose his salvation. A genuine Christian has died, and—come what may—his real life is now hidden with Christ in God (Col. 3:3). Salvation is a gift, and God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

I do think genuine Christians can certainly be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, and even become false teachers. And they can, like the foolish virgins, fail to keep oil in their lamps, and then carelessly miss the call from above for the first rapture (“Come up here” Rev. 4:1)—a first call which will separate vigilant Christians from carnal, deceived Christians (Rev. 3:10, 12:1-6). But after miraculously surviving 3.5 years (1,260 days) of Tribulation under God’s care, those virgins will definitely be ready to leave in the second rapture (Rev. 7:13-17).

I put a lot of research into this about 15-20 years ago. It gets confusing because there was more than one Darius and more than one Cyrus.

I repeat - They were separate Empires and some proof of that is that they had their own languages. They didn’t merge and become the Ram until 6 years after Darius took Babylon. That’s exactly what the scriptures clearly state, and that’s what I believe. You don’t believe Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah’s prophecy where they explicitly state Darius and the Medes TOOK Babylon?

It doesn’t matter that non biblical text put a hyphen in there. They are prophetically distinguished as separate empires UP TO THE TIME THE RAM DEVELOPED AFTER DARIUS TOOK BABYLON. Cyrus married Darius’ sister or daughter. (Mandane)

Median_empire_map

The Median capital of Ecbatana, today’s Hamadan, was situated at a critical point on the main road between Mesopotamia and the Iranian Plateau, from there leading around the Iranian central desert and eventually to China; as a result the Medes were well connected with the surrounding nations.

The Persians on the other hand initially settled slightly to the west of the Medes, but the first written records, from Assyria, find them in the southern Zagros Mountains, in the area north of the Persian Gulf, around Pars and the ancient [Persian] capitals of Pasargadae and Persepolis, an area away from the main trade roots.

Persians

Again, this close association is why the Medo-Persian empire is prophetically represented as ONE entity:
-as two silver arms (Dan. 2)
-as a bear with two sides (Dan. 7)
-as a ram with two horns (Dan. 8)
One entity 6 years AFTER the Medes took out Babylon!

I think you are proving the very point of why God would see the need to repeat certain things to us, sometimes using different illustrations, to help us to understand complicated things He’s trying to say. After all, His prophets had to use the vocabulary of their day when trying to address believers down through the coming generations, even those of us living thousands of years later.

Let me reiterate here that the less-than-perfect author of Revelation did likewise, with God sometimes showing him the same thing more than once: Revelation chapters 4 to 11 chronologically present events from the first Rapture until the Second Coming, and Revelation 12 to 19 offer a non-chronological recapitulation of the same events—with new perspectives and added details. (Please see my suggested Revelation chart, as well as my discussion of the structure of Revelation in the original post.)

I’ve seen the chart and I disagree with it.
NOTHING in Revelation is a REPEAT. It’s written chronologically. You say that because you believe in the over lapping of prophecies and I don’t.

Daniel 2 is a progression of ancient kingdoms and Daniel 7 is a disclosure of END-TIME kingdoms. We know the fourth 'dreadful and terrible beast is end-time, however, the word BEFORE proves that the lion, bear, and leopard RISE at the same time the fourth beast does. If you disregard the true meaning of the word BEFORE in Daniel 7, like you disregard the true meaning of the words “inferior” and MIXED that means you don’t have a sensible hermeneutic.

I don’t see this as a “problem,” therefore, why would I have addressed it? Again: in Daniel 7, God repeats with animals to a new king (and to us) what he had already said using a statue to show a previous king (and to us) in Daniel 2. God was symbolically laying out, in broad strokes, the political power from the time of Daniel all the way until the Second Coming.

You don’t see a problem that a prophet of God Almighty prophesied about - predicted - a kingdom RISING that rose some 50 years before? I see a problem and it’s called denial. You do know that ONE criteria of a prophet is that they CANNOT prophesy about something coming that was already in existence, - Riiight? Seems to me that if an Atheist knows that a Christian SHOULD!

Then who is falling away from what in 2 Thes. 2:3? (Perhaps it has to do with people defecting from…Islam?!)

It has nothing to do with the church and I can prove it…I’ll start another thread soon. Verses 3b - 12 have nothing to do with Christians and the church. 2 Thes. 2:3b-12 is all about the followers of the man of sin - not Christians.

Apostasy is related to the idea of divorce— apostásion [Strong’s G647], a noun derived from the verb aphistēmi [G868: turn away, fall away, withdraw self, depart from].
Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away [aphistēmi] from the living God.
Apostatizing Christians had formerly held (or, perhaps, still profess to hold) a personal relationship with Jesus: but they can’t fall from a place they never occupied.
The results of apostasy (from the true faith, since the Bible is warning believers) seem to be what Jesus has in mind here:
Aphistemi is not the same thing as apostasy which is only used twice in the NT.
Luke 18:8 (NIV)
“I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
Again, the idea of apostasy from the true faith [into fabricated stories and legalism] is warned against here:

There’s no such thing as apostasy from “the true faith.”

As a side note, I no longer believe that someone who was genuinely born again—even if he goes into error and sin—can lose his salvation. A genuine Christian has died, and—come what may—his real life is now hidden with Christ in God (Col. 3:3). Salvation is a gift, and God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

I believe the scriptures teach a person can lose their salvation.

"The Greatest Impediment Christians have obtaining truth is when they think they already have it."

Hermano,

I apologize for coming on a bit strong but I’ve become a bit battle weary on this issue over the last 17 or so years. My experience with this is that most Christians refuse to change their minds on just about anything because by doing - is an admission of being incorrect.

Sometimes there’s a mountain of scriptural evidence AGAINST what Christian’s believe and a mountain of evidence supporting something else, but to avoid Christians the admission of being wrong, Christians adamantly adhere to what they already believe. If it wouldn’t be for others who read these pages I wouldn’t even bother.

That’s why I’m very appreciative of Christians like Steve who admit they’re undecided - and searching for truth.

I believe that most of the so called ‘prophecy experts’ don’t have much of anything right, and you will find that I’m in disagreement with about everything they teach. I know I don’t have everything right, but I do know I’m on the right track. There are some things I’m unsure of and SOME things that I know I am correct on and Daniel 2 is one of them, and the fact that all four beast of Daniel 7 being future is another.

The fourth “dreadful and terrible” beast of Daniel 7 is - ISLAM!

I remember Richardson wrote or talked about this and he said the characteristics of this beast didn’t apply to Rome. (I’m doing this from memory) Rome was a builder not a destroyer, Rome allowed conquered lands to keep their religions and either Islam or perhaps the Ottoman Empire applied better, i gotta revisit this.

:wink:

The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)

Perhaps your own Christian background is not charismatic; nevertheless, the NAR, although initially seen mostly within the charismatic faction of the Church, is a dynamic, ecumenical, growing movement. It is gobbling up churches and organizations, as it relentlessly promotes the “victorious eschatology” of Dominion theology–a theology which has its roots in the 1940s Latter Rain theology. Both of these theologies generally reject futurism–with its belief in a coming apostasy, a coming human Antichrist, and a coming rapture–as being pessimistic and false.

The charismatic wing of the dominionist movement, which is still somewhat loosely organized, claims to be restoring the offices of apostle and prophet, and uniting the global church under their leadership. They even have their own favored version of Bible, The Passion Translation (see also, TPT), a work in progress. Their goal is to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, by taking over the earth–the so-called “seven mountain mandate"–and then to hand it over to Christ. The seven mountain mandate (SMM) has parallels with Marxism and its tactics.

Who is associated with the NAR?

NAR%20Relationships
(A larger .pdf version of this chart is available here.)

“New Apostolic Reformation” was a moniker coined for the movement by its first chief apostle, the late Professor C. Peter Wagner of Fuller Theological Seminary. Before his death, Wagner handpicked John P. Kelly as his replacement. Kelly is now the “International Convening Apostle” of the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders (ICAL), with central offices in Fort Worth, Texas.

Other ecumenical, dominion theology antecedents of the NAR movement include both the Promise Keepers and the Toronto Blessing movements from the Vineyard churches of the late Pastor John Wimber—who was himself an associate of C. Peter Wagner at Fuller, where they team-taught a class on “signs and wonders.”

Regarding NAR membership, Wikipedia states, “[Although] few, if any, organizations publicly espouse connection to the NAR …there are several individuals often associated with this movement” ( Wikipedia). A more comprehensive list of associated teachers can be found here.

In their book, A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (2018), R. Douglas Geivett and Holly Pivec point out that,

As with any other large, multi-faceted movement, participants in NAR hold to a spectrum of beliefs, accepting some NAR teachings and being unaware of or rejecting others. Indeed, many people taking part in NAR don’t even realize it is a movement, let alone embrace all the radical teachings surrounding it.

At present, perhaps the chief apologist and equivocator of the NAR is radio host Dr. Michael L. Brown, who, depending on the audience, sometimes argues the NAR doesn’t even exist!

Suffice it to say that the movement seems to be rapidly drawing in every false teacher in evangelical Christianity, particularly from the charismatic world. Like a multi-level marketing scheme, it is big business. And “better to join up sooner than later, while seniority is still being established.” There are so many tempting goodies to be had by affiliating yourself: networking opportunities, book endorsements, speaking engagements, travel, fame, and fortune.

So, will you hitch your wagon to the rising star of Antichrist? Will you join this seductive, self-affirming, mutual admiration society of power and wealth? Or, will you go to Christ, outside the camp (Hebrews 13:13)?

Business models and professional Christianity

What conditions in the Church have fostered the development of the NAR? I would offer, among other possibilities, the acceptance of outside control of local churches by, for example, denominational boards, missionary boards, and parachurch ministries; and the use of pragmatic (but unspiritual) short-cuts–that is, the use of worldly business growth principles–to achieve higher numbers of people and resources for the Kingdom.

“Nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.” 2 Thes. 3:8

Paul, a brilliant theologian, and a divinely appointed apostle, was also a self-supporting tentmaker (Acts 18:3). In this way, he had the advantage of not being in anyone’s pocket financially or doctrinally.

The Scriptures delineate the leadership of local autonomous churches as a plurality of elders, a collective leadership, raised up from within, with no single man in complete control. But in today’s churches, there is usually a “senior pastor” and “associate pastors” (often brought in from outside) who are generally professional clergy, as well as other hired staff.

The positions of “elder” and “deacon,” as effectuated in most churches today, are not in line with Scripture. They are born out of Protestant tradition, which is only slightly removed from that of Roman Catholicism, with the pastor as priest. In church meetings, the pastor is usually “running the show”; whereas in the Bible, we read things like,

“Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.” 1 Cor. 12:7

“Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop." 1 Cor. 14:29-30

Today’s larger churches often rely on worldly management techniques, marketing ploys, and business growth models, with the pastor often seen as a Chief Executive Officer (CEO).

This pragmatic business mind-set for church leadership and church growth has done inestimable harm, adulterating the spiritual with the secular. To name some names,

  • Certainly the influence of business management guru Peter Drucker is prominent in this church leadership business mindset. In fact Rick Warren, Bob Buford and Bill Hybels have been referred to as “the Druckerite ‘trinity’."

  • We see that this church-as-business thinking was promoted by the late Bob Buford, who was founder of the Leadership Network and mentor to senior pastor Rick Warren of the Saddleback Church, as well as to Emergent Church leaders like well-spoken mystic and social justice warrior, Brian McLaren. (And certainly, McLaren and Warren are no fans of the study of end-times prophecies.)

  • We see this commercial mind-set popularized in the annual “Global Leadership Summit” (GLS) events of the Global Leadership Network, developed by disgraced former senior pastor Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Church, which are still sponsored by that church. (Do you remember Jesus saying he would pick the most gifted public speakers and business minds to build his Church? Me neither! Paul neither. 1 Cor. 2:4-5!)

  • Regarding toxic church growth philosophies, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, and John Wimber were all influenced by the late Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral. Further, C. Peter Wagner identified Warren and Hybels as New Apostolic pastors in his 1999 book, Churchquake: how the new apostolic reformation is shaking up the church as we know it.

Will true peace come to the earth before Jesus returns? Like other dominionists, Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in California believes that the Church will establish the Kingdom of God here on earth, before Christ’s return. His P.E.A.C.E. plan is part of that initiative.

The eschatology of the NAR

In their eschatology, advocates of the New Apostolic Reformation generally reject futurism in favor of either,

  1. Preterism - the position that biblical prophecies concerning the “last days” were mainly fulfilled by 70 AD, when an angry Jesus, utilizing the Roman army, returned to kill the Christ-rejecting Jews in Jerusalem. (That’s right: the same, apparently bipolar, Jesus who had earlier said so tenderly, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem,…how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing”, Mt. 23:37, Lk. 13:34). And so in this viewpoint, there is no coming Antichrist, Rapture, or Tribulation on the horizon. Instead, in the words of singer Johnny Nash, “Look straight ahead, nothin’ but blue skies.”

Or, more acceptable to nonviolent-types within the movement,

  1. Open Theism” - the belief that God does not actually know the future (is not truly omniscient), and so He is “open” to working with us, in order to rewrite the violent end-times scenario He has forewarned about in prophecy—making it into something more victorious and glorious, by editing out all the negativity, with our help. And so, here again, there is no coming Antichrist, Rapture, or Tribulation on the horizon. (It should be noted here that in a similar fashion, New Age leader Barbara Marx Hubbard says that the New Age “Christ” has a plan, and he is promising that if everyone will just collaborate and co-create with the New Age Christ, world peace is possible, and Armageddon is avoidable.)

Nevertheless, there is a third category of NAR dominionists who do not reject futurism, and hold a distinctive version of the Post-Tribulation position—with their own violent spin:

  1. Post-Tribulationism - Mike Bickle, a dominionist from IHOP, teaches that the Church causes the Great Tribulation, and will kill people during it. Then, Christ will return after his Church has Christianized society. (Remember: Adolf Hitler was initially derided by some as an inconsequential buffoon. With that in mind, watch this video clip of Bickle shortly after the 4:30 minute mark, as he says, “I’m talking about the prayer of faith that heals; and I’m talking about the prayer of faith that kills!”

The NAR teaches that all Christians, by placing themselves under the direction of their “divinely” appointed apostles and prophets, must join together in unity to successfully incarnate Christ (“WE ARE Christ”), in order to take over the world in the name of Christ. These cooperative Christians, as specially appointed overcomers, are known variously as “Joel’s Army,” “Manifest Sons,” or “New Breed” Christians, and will supposedly usher in a beautiful theocracy.

Many in this movement believe the return of Christ is spiritual and invisible, not physical (–kind of like the Jehovah’s Witnesses believing that Jesus came back invisibly in 1914), and, as we recall from one of its antecedent streams, Promise Keepers, “Christ cannot incarnate in a divided body”; so, it’s necessary that the Church be united under dominionist leadership, and–as the New Age movement similarly suggests–come under an “overshadowing.”

But Christ’s return will be physical and public, not spiritual and invisible. We have been forewarned about this kind of confusion:

  • “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Mt. 24:26-27.

  • “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” 1 John 4:2-3. (KJV)

    Note: I used the KJV on 1 John 4:2-3, because “is come” in English better captures the intent of the perfect participle active used in the Greek—meaning the condition of ‘come’ is both being stressed and has ongoing effect—which can thus encompass past, present, and future.

    Jesus has chosen to permanently abide in the (now-glorified) physical body he received through Mary. We know that the lesser reality of the physical realm—purged of all death—will some day merge with, and be subsumed by, the the greater reality of the heavenly realm (Rev. 21:1-5). Jesus’ birth in a physical body was the initial intersection point in this process.

The NAR promotes a broad, triumphalist, social gospel, which rejects, as negative nonsense, any idea of a coming worldwide deception under the leadership of any made-up, bugaboo Antichrist. Ironically, to resist the NAR is to be labeled “Jezebel.”

The NAR’s message is sometimes mixed with militant and violent rhetoric by certain adherents (see, for example, the earlier video clip of Mike Bickle and the later clip of Peter Wagner). This violent rhetoric anticipates the eventual fulfillment of this warning of Christ:

“…In fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.” John 16:2b.

The dominion theology of the NAR takes the literal Old Testament promises of God given to the nation of Israel and forces them to apply to the Church. (From the perspective of futurism, this “Replacement Theology” is perceived as a step toward the enemy’s anti-Semitism.)

The eschatology of the New Age movement

In an eerily similar vein to the NAR, The New Age Movement speaks about a growing “Christ consciousness” throughout the earth which will impact society for good. “New Agers” think mankind is on the verge of an esoteric evolutionary leap to the “Omega Point” of human evolution, which will result in a super race of overcomers. They, also, are ecumenical, and believe that enlightened people need to unite in purpose with New Age leaders, and fully focus on working together in order to bring “Christ” to earth.

By way of the harmonic convergence of our innate human potential—our psychic power—New Agers believe “Christ” will finally appear, and we will enter a “new age” of worldwide peace and prosperity. Adherents talk about a type of conversion experience needed in order to see and enjoy our oneness and interconnectedness, a “paradigm shift” to “Christ consciousness.” (Again, “WE ARE Christ.”)

But, regarding the idea that “We are Christ” promoted in both the NAR and the New Age, consider this dire warning from Jesus:

Matthew 24:4-5 (NKJV)

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For MANY will come in My name, saying, ‘I AM THE CHRIST’ and will deceive MANY.”

The Ecumenism of the NAR

Question: have you ever heard of national and international concerts and youth rallies led by either Australia’s “Hillsong Music,” or by “Jesus Culture Music” of Bethel Church in Redding, California? How about Lou Engle’s “Awaken” and “The Send” Events? These are actually NAR-sponsored activities, which have an agenda to draw in young adults and foster trans-local, trans-denominational unity under their “apostolic” leadership—a hierarchical pyramid structure of leadership reminiscent of the pope in Rome and his cardinals.

And, by the way, key evangelical leaders in the NAR, such as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kris Vallotton, Todd White, Mike Bickle, and Lou Engle, to name a few, are enamored with the idea of evangelicals reconciling with the Roman Catholic Church —with its salvation through sacraments. But that’s only in keeping with what the late Paul Crouch, president of TBN, had said on his “Praise the Lord” program back on October 17, 1989:

"I’m eradicating the word Protestant even out of my vocabulary…I’m not protesting anything… [it’s] time for Catholics and non-Catholics to come together as one in the Spirit and one in the Lord.”

Of course the Lord loves Catholics! Jesus died for them. But how many professing Catholics do you know who understand the born-again experience? Every Christian I know with a Catholic background, never felt led to return to the Catholic church after they got saved. Indeed, the Roman Catholic church, like the NAR, is something to be run from, not run to.

The false teachers of the Word-Faith movement

Speaking of Hinn and Copeland, false teachers of the Word-Faith movement are a big stream of the NAR. The enemy mixes his lies with just enough truth to still make things appealing to many Christians. So although these money-loving wolves with lavish lifestyles preach a self-centered health and wealth gospel, still and all, God’s will is for people to be healthy (Mt. 8:16-17, 1 Peter 2:24) and to prosper (Lk. 15:31, 16:9; 2 Cor. 8:9, 9:11):

Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers. 3 John 1:2.

Indeed, you can’t very well give others a hand up if you are flat on your back, sick, or with empty pockets.

Further, regarding “the power of the tongue,” an idea so misused and abused in Word-Faith that it is, for them, part of some self-hypnotic, psychic, Mind Science, Proverbs does indeed say, “The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit” (Prov. 18:21).

James asserts that “Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect,” and yet also says, that “no human being can tame the tongue” (Js. 3:8)! So, we must humbly give our tongue over to the Holy Spirit, and learn to “pray in the Spirit on all occasions” (Eph. 6:18; cf. 1 Cor. 14:14-15). In this way we can facilitate our deliverance from evil, and begin to more consistently obey the injunction, “Bless and do not curse” (Rom. 12:14), as we should.

And regarding our spiritual authority, we are not just to petition God in prayer, but also to take action ourselves when we know the will of God. Jesus told the disciples to proclaim the kingdom, and commanded them, “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give” (Mt. 10:8).

We too are his disciples. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater, because of a bunch of greedy, manipulative “Word of Faith” psychics with weird hair.

(Note: we must first learn to successfully “freely receive” directly from God, in order to then have something blessed to “freely give” to our neighbor. First things first.)

Mysticism and false miracles

With respect to any alleged miracle, while I certainly believe in divine miracles, even nowadays (Jn. 14:12), I also believe in satanic miracles, even nowadays. For example, we recall the great power on display from Pharaoh’s magicians (Ex. 7-8), and from Simon the Sorcerer in Samaria (Acts 8). Further, we are specifically warned about the proliferation of demonic signs and wonders performed by false prophets, in association with the rise of the Antichrist (Mt. 24:24, Mk. 13:22, 2 Thes. 2:9).

Some people are looking for an ecstatic experience, more than for truth. Sensuality is a characteristic of both the NAR and Jezebel–the new Babylon. NAR-affiliated churches boast manifestations of gold dust, holy laughter, angelic encounters, and even the supposed manifest presence of God in glory clouds, brought down to earth through anointed (read “formulaic, agenda-driven, hypnotic”) worship. But “all that glitters is not gold,” and Paul warns, “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light” (2 Cor. 11:13-14).

For all of their talk about the importance of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in the NAR, ironically the gift of discerning of spirits (1 Cor. 12:10) is obviously lacking!

Alarmingly, the “primal energy” unleashed by Kundalini yoga practitioners inside the New Age movement (“In India, It’s Just Hinduism”), and the “anointing” activation released inside the NAR, bear a striking resemblance. Please be sure to watch this eye-opening thirty minute documentary to see the similarities for yourself. (You will need to forgive the bad opening music of the documentary, but it will be worth it!)

And unfortunately, adherents to both the NAR and the New Age Movement are very much into mysticism, and show wide-eyed acceptance of virtually all supernatural or psychic phenomena, and see them as desirable. Yet we have been forewarned by Jesus:

Matthew 7:22-23
MANY will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, DID WE NOT prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and IN YOUR NAME PERFORM MANY MIRACLES?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

It would seem that these rejected people in Matthew 7:22-23 (above) had embraced a counterfeit gospel of works, instead of the genuine gospel of grace.

Some of the people who “pray a prayer to invite Christ into their lives” do so without an attitude of unconditional surrender: I am not sure Christ always accepts that kind of invitation. For Jesus, that might be like a drunk person driving up to him in their car, and saying to him, “Hop in, Jesus, you’re welcome to ride with me!” But instead, they should be saying, “Jesus, I’m yours. This car is yours. You drive! I’ll ride in back, if you prefer.”

Legalism and the NAR

Speaking of misrepresentations of the gospel, there is a false gospel of salvation by works: but God is not legalistic, Satan is. And speaking of the bondage of legalism, who can forget an NAR forerunner called “Promise Keepers,” in the face of Christ’s explicit command,

“But I say to you, make no oath at all,…But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is from the evil one.” Mt. 5:34, 37.

There seem to be increasing claims of alleged divine revelations about “courts” and “courtrooms” in heaven; and the promotion of such revelations seems to be on the rise in apostolic dominionist circles nowadays. This new idea is that when we pray, we are stepping into a judicial system. So, when we pray, we need to get “binding contracts” in place, in order for God to be able to act. So, for example, we have to find the legal reason why someone is sick, in order to pray for them effectively. Bethel Church in Redding, California offers training in these misguided prayer “techniques.”

But what about, “It is finished” (Jn. 19:30)?! We are to focus on Jesus, and to freely receive by faith the benefits of his finished work; not on ourselves and what we must still supposedly do to win things from God—let alone, by way of using legalistic or mystical techniques.

Again, among evangelicals in the NAR, the trend is toward results-oriented, pragmatic, mystical, unbiblical, technique-driven prayer and worship. In an article titled “Prayer Gone Awry,” which critically examines these techniques, T.A. McMahon says,

Based upon the whole counsel of God’s Word concerning prayer, we can also make specific judgments as to whether or not a doctrine conforms to God’s way. For example, does it make prayer a technique or methodology? Does it require certain works, rituals, or game plans in order to be successful? If that’s the case, we have denied the critical personal-relationship aspect of prayer and rendered God a law-bound entity which must answer our prayers because we have followed certain rules or procedures.

Incredibly, what may be the fastest growing technique-driven prayer among evangelicals today is known as “strategic-level intercession.” According to its promoters it involves newer varieties of prayer such as “spiritual warfare,” “territorial spirits,” “prophetic acts,” “spiritual mapping,” “warfare prayer,” “tearing down strongholds,” “identificational repentance,” and “remitting the sins of nations.” Explanations of these prayer systems are found in advocate C. Peter Wagner’s book, Confronting the Powers, along with definitions of other methods, including “four ways of praying in the community”: praise marches, prayerwalks, prayer journeys, and more wide-ranging prayer expeditions. These, the author notes, “were virtually unknown to the majority of Christians before the 1990s…” Certainly, they were not known by God’s prophets and apostles!

With warfare operations names like “Operation Queen’s Palace” and “Operation Ice Castle,” deluded, wannabe Ghostbusters in the NAR think they can successfully dislodge territorial spirits through pounding anointed “prayer stakes” into the ground, and climbing to the tops of mountains to shout at the devil.

George Otis, Jr is now the go-to guy of the NAR for spiritual warfare techniques, particularly “spiritual mapping.” He is also a proponent of Moral Government Theology (MGT), which denies the doctrine of original sin, and carefully avoids any recognition of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, or the power of his blood. Further, MGT was widely taught to Loren Cunningham’s YWAM (Youth With A Mission) missionaries in years gone by; and MGT–like “Open theism,” which is the new emphasis in YWAM–promotes the idea that God does not know the future (is not omniscient).

The preferred blueprint for taking dominion over cities and nations is demonstrated in Otis’s Transformations movie series produced by his Sentinel Group.

The NAR and the New Age Movement: two sides of the same coin.

Both camps seek earthly political power. As for the NAR, there are both Christians and non-Christians who are skeptical of the NAR’s dominionist political agenda. And as to the political aspirations of New Agers, author Marianne Williamson, personal guru to Oprah Winfrey, threw her hat in the ring for the Democratic nomination in the 2020 presidential election.

Also, Barbara Marx Hubbard, a nominee for the vice-presidency of the United States on the Democratic ticket in 1984, is still promoting the well-known New Age goal of "Planetary Pentecost,” and the idea of co-creating a better future with God (equivalent to the idea among evangelicals of Open theism) in her latest book, The Evolutionary Testament of Co-Creation: The Promise Will Be Kept (2015).

Barbara Marx Hubbard promotes a ‘victorious eschatology,’ whereby the unity of enlightened people will bring about a peaceful Second Coming of “Christ.” An editorial review of her book at Amazon states in part:

"Barbara calls this collective transformation the Planetary Pentecost, a life-affirming alternative to Armageddon. ‘The promise will be kept’ is a call to action for humanity to awaken as a Planetary Social Body. It inspires each individual to awaken to his or her divine nature and fulfill the promise of performing even greater miracles than those once performed by Jesus.”

And clearly corresponding to the “Planetary Pentecost” promoted by the New Age, is the “Second Pentecost” promoted by those in the NAR, like pastor Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in Redding!

Syncretism

New Age mystical beliefs from the NAR continue to enter the charismatic world, and of course, New Age Hinduism has mainstreamed into the non-charismatic world as well. (Ever heard of Transcendental Meditation, or Yoga?)

A book entitled “The Physics of Heaven: exploring God’s mysteries of sound, light, energy, vibrations, and quantum physics” by Judy Franklin & Ellyn Davis (2012) is strongly promoted by Bethel Church in Redding, CA. In his contributed chapter, Dr. Jonathan Welton of the New Hope Community Church in North Chili, NY, reassures his Christian readers not to be afraid to reclaim purported tools from God, which were supposedly hijacked by the New Age movement:

“I have found throughout Scripture at least 75 examples of things that the New Age has counterfeited, such as having a spirit guide, trances, meditation, auras, power objects, clairvoyance, clairaudience, and more . These actually belong to the church, but they have been stolen and cleverly repackaged.” [Emphasis added, The Physics of Heaven, p. 49.]

The NAR and violence

The NAR is an iron fist inside a velvet glove, and one day that glove will come off. The recognition of God’s nonviolent nature, in contradistinction to Satan’s violent nature, is of paramount importance to be able to distinguish and resist the violent, anti-Semitic, totalitarian spirit of Antichrist in all of its initial subtleties and flatteries.

You cannot “play footsies” with this spirit and think to escape from it later without serious repentance. The spirit of Antichrist is like a giant magnet, and the lies of false religious doctrines everywhere are like iron: and they are now being called in. If someone is holding a piece of that iron, he will be pulled to the Antichrist, unless he chooses to let go, through repentance. Unfortunately, we may say of the well-meaning Christians being seduced into the NAR: ‘They are not holding fast to the head’ (Col. 2:18-19). They are being drawn into “Christian Imperialism.”

The late C. Peter Wagner, founder and “head apostle” of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), propagated a false equivalence between spiritual warfare and physical warfare, plainly illustrated in the following video clip:

Here, Wagner is teaching that physical warfare is appropriate and necessary to the dominionist agenda of world domination. He refers to physical warfare and killing, such as happened in Iraq and Vietnam, as being equivalent to spiritual warfare—apparently as one aspect of “Ground Level Spiritual Warfare,” in the same category with church deliverance ministries!

BUT regarding the use of killing to advance the kingdom of heaven: although we may have the highest regard for the police and the armed forces, we discerning Christians must affirm that, in our own case, WE are to ‘LOVE our enemies’ (Mt. 5:44); that "OUR struggle is NOT against flesh and blood” (Eph. 6:12); that “The weapons of OUR warfare are NOT carnal” (2 Cor. 10:4); and that “Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. IF IT WERE, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders.’” John 18:36.

Another leader in the NAR movement who promotes militant rhetoric is Rick Joyner, of Morningstar Ministries in North Carolina. He has warned of a coming Civil War in the Church, which will be comparable to the American Civil War from 1861-1865 in which over 600,000 people died. But he says this new civil war will be between the Christians being led by “the Spirit” —who hence choose to submit to God’s anointed apostles and prophets (the Blues, akin to the “Yankees” of the Northern Union), and the rebellious, carnally minded Christians—who resist ‘getting with the program’ (the Grays, akin to the “Rebels” of the Southern Confederacy):

Like the American Civil War, the coming spiritual civil war will also be between the Blue and the Gray. In dreams and visions blue often represents heavenly mindedness- the sky is blue- and gray speaks of those who live by the power of their minds- the brain is often called gray matter- this will be a conflict between those who may be genuine Christians, but who live mostly according to their own natural minds and human wisdom, and those who follow the Holy Spirit. (“Civil War in the Church,” The Morning Star Prophetic Bulletin, May 1996, 2.)

In conclusion, the New Apostolic Reformation is being guided by the spirit of Antichrist, and must be exposed and confronted for the sake of the Christians who are being taken captive to it.

(This essay is also available as a pdf document: “The NAR, by Hermano, 18 Nov 2019.pdf”)

Kind of judgemental don’t you think Hermo man?

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Chad to Hermano.

Each denomination has different theological perspectives, on what “born again” means. See

Then go to the section on Denominational positions.

You will see the theological positions from Catholicism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Reformed, Methodism, Evangelicalism, and Jehovah’s Witnesses.

And the Eastern Orthodox, have their own perspective

The problem is that we think we have the “definitive answer”, on a theological position. When in reality, we might just be looking at things - through a particular theological lens.

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That’s an excellent summary, Randy.

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Very few as it’s not part of their agenda, they may equate “born again” with “water Baptism” but i’m not sure or to them “born again” may simply mean believing.

Far be it from me to judge/condemn anyone. But as a Christian, I do prayerfully seek to judge/discern, especially in this age of political correctness. As I said in an earlier comment above:

If a person is born again by receiving the Gift of Jesus (John 1:12-13), they have passed from death to life (John 5:24). If they are like me, they feel they were blind, but that now they see (John 9:25). My own experience was that after I explicitly, sincerely, unconditionally surrendered myself to God, and sought to invite and receive Jesus into my heart, I subsequently began to enjoy supernatural reassurance that Jesus had indeed come into me and taken up residence by his Holy Spirit. I also began to feel led to seek out other people who had had a similar, supernatural transition. Also, I now felt a strong to desire to study the Bible and to share my life-altering experience with others.

I live in a vastly Roman Catholic country, where people believe in salvation by works and sacraments, and in the unquestionable authority of tradition and Catholicism.

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The primary leader of the free world, Donald Trump, needs our prayers:

1 Timothy 2:1-2 (NIV)

Instructions on Worship

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

At a rally in Pennsylvania yesterday, President Trump called representative Adam Schiff (D-Calif) a “crooked bastard.” Although I oppose coarse language, I would still trust Trump over Schiff any day.

Personally, I am not overly distressed about the president’s bad language and sarcasm, but I am troubled about some of his Christian advisors, mentioned by Fox News today in “Pastors, worship leaders pray for Trump in Oval Office amid impeachment fight.” Several are ardent adherents of dominion theology, who think involvement in politics is the best way to bring in an ecumenical Christian theocracy.

For example, the article mentions Paula White-Cain, the chair of Trump’s evangelical advisory board. (She delivered the invocation at his inauguration, on January 20, 2017.) The article also quotes dominionist Sean Feucht of Bethel Church in Redding—who is now running for Congress in California. They are both associated with the “New Apostolic Reformation.”

Note: I have never heard the president promote dominionism, and I doubt he even perceives their global agenda: on the contrary, Trump seems adamantly anti-globalist! Nevertheless, Paula White-Cain and Sean Feucht are both also mentioned today in a rather concerning article titled, “Has the New Apostolic Reformation ‘hijacked’ the White House? (Updated).”

As a futurist, I believe in a prophesied apostasy among Christians (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)–which I think the New Apostolic Reformation exemplifies; a literal Antichrist; a global commercial center developing in Iraq; a literal rapture (or raptures); and a coming time of world tribulation which will begin after the first rapture. So I consider any ecumenical movement toward world unity under a theocracy—prior to the physical Second Coming of Christ—to be inspired by the spirit of antichrist.

Again, my main concerns today regarding unfolding Bible prophecy are ecumenism and materialism, not Islam. In contradiction to other futurists who have commented in this thread, I do not believe the Antichrist will be a fundamentalist Muslim, although he may arise from a Muslim nation. The prophet Daniel seems to indicate that this man will not have allegiance to any major world religion or god (e.g., “nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all”; “a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver”):

Daniel 11:31-38 (NIV)
31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.
34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.
35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

The King Who Exalts Himself

36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.
37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, BUT WILL EXALT HIMSELF above them all.
38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses [or, a god of forces]; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.

Since I recognize a growing apostasy among genuine believers in the Church, I take particular comfort in verse 35: “Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end.” Our God will never give up on anyone.

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WOW you should be concerned!! Not only excruciatingly embarrassing but down-right scary…

David, you do not have a dog in the hunt. So got to take it from the source, the current politicians are pandering to whoever and whatever… The position of Mr Trump will always have a stake in the very conservative base, so here in the USA there is a contingent that believes that a shake up is crucial, and a understanding of how corrupt the status quo is needed.

You’re right Chad, and sooo glad I don’t… the video however affirms Hermano’s concerns — all I can say is WOW!!

I think President Trump, should have chosen this person - as a Christian faith adviser. Perhaps some of his miracle spring water would make this impeachment soap opera go away. :crazy_face:

No,actually you are right and I tend to agree with your view about the video, but I also acknowledge that politicians do what they need to do to win elections. It is just a fact of life like taxes and cars breaking down :grimacing:

So how do you view the idea of lesser evil? As it deals with politics? Are you a staunch in the wool right is right, or is there a place of gotta get what we can view? :smiley:

Ah, but Davo, you do! you do! We all do. Mexico is also rife with dominionism/ the New Apostolic Reformation, and so is Australia.

The Fox News article I linked to above (“Pastors, worship leaders pray for Trump in Oval Office amid impeachment fight”) highlights the participation of Brian Houston of Hillsong Church in Australia. And Hillsong Church of Australia, and Bethel Church of California, work hand in hand for the dominionist agenda.

Consider this article:

Australia’s Prime Minister duped into endorsing the ‘Awakening Australia’ event?

Nah not really Hermano — dominion theology like dispensational eschatology have this in common… neither has ANYTHING to do with biblical prophecy.

And in-kind — Donald Trump like Brian Houston have this in common… both are shallow and shifty, IMO.

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Also Paula White has been a Word of Faith proponent (name it and claim it) and if you listen to Trump speak he sometimes says things that sound unrealistic or greatly exaggerated and in the WOF theology you can speak things into existence if you have enough faith! I wonder if Trump subscribes to this?

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