The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Temple, the Antichrist, and the Structure of Revelation

Theology Eschatology
#128

So Hermano 101 is… God’s wrath becomes man’s wrath — and therefore conversely the opposite must likewise be true, thus…

Jas 1:20 …for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Becomes…

Jas 1:20 Hermano …for the wrath of God does not produce the righteousness of God.

And so the likes of…

Prov 20:2 The wrath of a king is like the roaring of a lion; whoever provokes him to anger sins against his own life.

Becomes this…

Prov 20:2 Hermano The wrath of God is like the roaring of a lion; whoever provokes him to anger sins against his own life.

Interesting :question:

NOPE!!

:unamused:

#129

Why didn’t God destroy the devil or at least ban him from the Garden?

#130

That’s the wrong question Steve. One needs to ask… WHY does Hermano attribute to the devil what those texts he references CLEARLY states was… the man, Adam!?

#131

In other words Hermano, Satan being the master of deception is pitted against Eve and Adam presumably innocent & having no experience with sin or deception. Is this a fair fight, did A & E have a realistic chance to resist?

#132

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

Regarding the Second Coming of Christ, we (futurist) Christians are looking for the return of Christ to defeat the Antichrist, and then set up his Millennial Kingdom on earth. But the eschatological traditions of various other religions include “messianism,” and so they too expect a coming savior.

“Jesus” is highly esteemed by many non-Christians right along with other religious leaders such as Buddha, Krishna, Confucius, Laozi, and Mohammed. Jesus is referred to by them, by various honorifics such as Yogi, Adept, Avatar, Shaman, Way-show-er, Master, and Guru.

Timing is key. I have argued in my original post (above) that what is imminent (what comes next prophetically) is not the return of Christ, but the rise of Antichrist. And that the Antichrist will be hailed by the world as a hero, because he will appear to bring humanity back from the brink of annihilation, and lead us into a time of peace and prosperity, in what is actually a massive deception orchestrated by Satan.

So regarding the messianism in other world religions, I would suggest my coming “Antichrist” will be someone else’s coming “messiah”:

  • Shia Muslims are looking for the 12th “Mahdi” who vanished in 941 AD.
  • Sunni Muslims are looking for the first appearance of “Mahdi.”
  • Hindus are looking for the Tenth Avatar, “Kalki.”
  • Buddhists are expecting the appearance of the Fifth Buddha, “Maitreya.”
  • And like Buddhists, many New Agers and Theosophists believe Maitreya (an “ascended master,” that is, a high-ranking member of “the Masters of the Ancient Wisdom” --which is a hidden Spiritual Hierarchy) will soon manifest himself to all humanity and usher in a new era of peace and happiness; while other New Agers are waiting for the “cosmic Christ” (a divine spirit) to fall upon all humanity so that people around the world can recognize their divinity and thus leap forward in their evolutionary advancement, and in their ability to access their human potential and innate psychic powers.
#133

Regarding warnings about false signs and wonders in the end-times, performed even by people identifying themselves as Christians, I thought this post by “Kate” in another thread, who asks about difficult verses in the Book of Hebrews, could be relevant:

Let me say again, I do not believe a genuine Christian can lose his salvation:

John 10:28-29 (NIV)
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NKJV)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

As I said in my original post above,

(Parenthetically, let me add that those genuine Christians who are deceived in the last days, and choose to mistakenly follow the spirit of Antichrist—with all of his later flattery and sensuality—while they may be deaf to the call of the first rapture, will later finally wake up and repent when the Antichrist turns on them. They will certainly be ready 1,260 days/3.5 years later for the second rapture! Rev. 12:1-6 and Rev. 7:9-14.)

Now, what of someone who associates himself with Christ, and identifies himself as a Christian, yet is not actually “born again”? As Paul exhorted:

2 Cor. 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

To consider a specific example of someone being very closely associated with Christ and the gospel, and doing wonders, yet who was actually unsaved, recall Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve original apostles:

Matthew 10:1 (NKJV)
The Twelve Apostles
1 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

Acts 1:24-25 (NIV)
24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.”

Note: the remaining eleven original apostles themselves were not “born again” until after Jesus breathed on them and imparted his Holy Spirit, which he did only after his resurrection. John 20:19-22.

And later, John explains that those who walk with us Christians, as we walk with the Lord, but who later turn away and deny Christ, were never actually “of us” to begin with:

1 John 2:18-19, 22-23 (NKJV)
Deceptions of the Last Hour
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
…
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

And Jesus himself warns of those who will definitely consider themselves Christians, and who will even prophesy and do wonders in his name, and yet are actually false brethren:

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 MANY will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

  • How is it that these people consider themselves Christians, but are not?
  • What false gospel have they accepted, and wrongly believed to be true?

Apparently, a salvation by doing, instead of by believing: something to be earned, instead of freely received. A gospel of works, and not of faith:

Hebrews 5:13 (NIV)
Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness OF GOD is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Hebrews 6 and 10 - A Universalist Reaction?
#134

I’m happy with the perspective that we are saved by faith, and judged by our works.

#136

Here’s an interesting quote from the intro from a paper on the matter of antichrist…

An inventory of ways biblical antichristos passages are interpreted reveals several tendencies. The term is often used as a projection of one’s fears or as a means of furthering group solidarity against perceived threats. ‘Those who would threaten our values and beliefs’, an apologist might argue, ‘are doing the work of “the Antichrist”’. Associations establish linkages, then, with other biblical threats and villains, and before you know it, entire theological systems of antichristic speculation come to dominate the apologetic landscape, functioning theologically as a means of eschewing perceived threats and reinforcing commitment to particular interpretive stands. Hence, additional interests in dividing truth from error become attached to antichristic passages as a means of constructing larger rhetorical arguments against perceived religious threats—both real and imagined.

Paul N. Anderson Antichristic Errors: Flawed Interpretations Regarding The Johannine Antichrist pg. 196

#137

Maybe this popular book might provide some insight - into this topic! :crazy_face:

#138

Obviously it’s hyperbole because Jesus said “all things are possible” with God and it’s God’s will that everyone should be saved, so which statement is true? “All things are possible with God” clearly is true and “impossible” is hyperbole and a warning to Jewish believers who were falling away.

#139

Sounds right to me. But I wanted to point out to others that you’re quoting me as I quote “Kate.” Also, as I said on Kate’s original thread:

#140

The Coronavirus and globalism.

The Coronavirus is scary. But I would argue that globalism is more so. As American radio pundit Rush Limbaugh said yesterday,

"There’s no question that Bernie Sanders poses a far greater threat to this country and the Democrat Party than the coronavirus….And I mean to say that the Democrat Party, as it’s currently constituted, poses a much greater threat to this country than the Coronavirus does. And you can quote me on that.”

I agree. Sure, the Coronavirus is serious. So, we should wash our hands often, and avoid touching our faces. And we should probably stock our pantries, make sure we have all our medicines, get some bottled water and masks, and use disinfectant liberally. But we should not freak out about it!

Hebrews 2:14-15
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

The devil is about fear, not God. God is about love, and there is no fear in love:

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love [i.e., God] drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

There are opportunistic people who want more power concentrated in their greedy hands, and are trying to push our panic buttons right now to get it. In that regard, this Coronavirus panic reminds me of the climate change panic: sure, we all want clean air and water, but let’s not give in to fear about it, let alone global socialism.

Regarding this virus, we serve a God who desires to heal the sick and injured, as Jesus showed. And as Elijah, Elisha, Peter, and Paul (people who sinned every day just like us) also showed, God wants to use us believers—by faith in his name—to lay our hands on the sick so that they will recover. And God is still the same in 2020.

What Jesus said 2,000 years ago to his disciples is still applicable to us today in 2020:

Luke 10:19
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Also, God can still give us water out of the rock; cleanse contaminated water by someone throwing a tree into in; send an air-conditioned cloud by day in a burning desert, as well as a warming, illuminating fire by night in a freezing desert. And in a wilderness without supermarkets, He can send food down from the sky every single day. He can (through us today) multiply a boy’s lunch to feed 5,000 men—besides women and children.

We futurists believe evil will increase right up until the Second Coming of Christ. More shaking is coming, in diverse forms: we must remember that evil can come in many forms, some of which might be very attractive and seductive “proposed solutions” to remedy uncomfortable situations.

However, we must oppose political or religious “unity” when it’s based on lies. And we should oppose power being concentrated in the hands of fewer and fewer people—whether they be dictators or popes; politicians or today’s “apostles.” Because ultimately, it is the devil pulling the strings of the power-hungry: they are merely pawns in his seductive pyramid scheme—a scheme which leads up to, and culminates in, his Antichrist.

I have warned about the influence that the Christian dominionists are having on Donald Trump and American politics. The president has unwisely appointed televangelist Paula White as a special advisor to “the Faith and Opportunity Initiative” at the Office of Public Liaison at the White House. The president does not discern the globalist agenda of the New Apostolic Reformation.

This hunger for political power by some in the Church is euphemistically referred to by Christianity Today as “evangelical pragmatism.”

On the one hand, Mr. Trump gave a fantastic, heartfelt anti-globalist speech at the United Nations recently; and yet on the other hand, he is letting himself be seduced by moralistic, legalistic Christian globalists. The devil seems to have something for every taste on his menu. If he doesn’t get you coming, he’ll try to get you going.

Concerning the Coronavirus, I certainly did appreciate Mr. Trump’s anti-panic press conference yesterday. But in the future, I hope he will also exhort citizens to seek God with all their hearts, and to put their hope and trust in Him alone.

Romans 15:13
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

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How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper
#141

Great, actions always speak louder so don’t let these be empty words, i.e., don’t waste time on this forum… get out and do as you say!

#142

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#144

The definition for globalism that I found is: “the attitude OR POLICY of placing the interests of the entire world above those of individual nations.” [Thus, in essence, the promotion of the subsuming of the world under one leadership.]

However, who would be trustworthy to determine such a “policy,” let alone implement and enforce it? Mankind is fallen, and so only Jesus would be trustworthy.

And yet even after the Second Coming of Christ, we still read about nations existing:

Revelation 21:21-24
21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.

Regarding nationalism and patriotism vis-à-vis Christianity–

There is a place for national sovereignty under Christianity. Nations develop around a common culture and language, and reveal God’s creativity. At the Tower of Babel, it was God who multiplied the languages and scattered all the people who were possibly under the warrior Nimrod (a type of Antichrist, Gen. 10:8-10), and apparently wanted to remain unified under his rebellious lies (Gen. 11:1-9).

Today, the rebellious spirit of Antichrist draws people to a false unity under Satan, the god of this age, whom many unbelievers on the planet will eventually worship openly:

Revelation 13:3-4
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

In his speech before all the powerful globalists at the U.N. [to whom national sovereignty is anathema], Trump brilliantly encouraged people to be the best they could be in their own individual countries, thus helping their countries to be healthy and good and free—which would in turn benefit the rest of the planet.

Among other things, he said,

Americans know that in a world where others seek conquest and domination, our nation must be strong in wealth, in might, and in spirit. That is why the United States vigorously defends the traditions and customs that have made us who we are.

Like my beloved country, each nation represented in this hall has a cherished history, culture, and heritage that is worth defending and celebrating, and which gives us our singular potential and strength.

The free world must embrace its national foundations. It must not attempt to erase them or replace them.

Looking around and all over this large, magnificent planet, the truth is plain to see: If you want freedom, take pride in your country. If you want democracy, hold on to your sovereignty. And if you want peace, love your nation. Wise leaders always put the good of their own people and their own country first.

The future does not belong to globalists. The future belongs to patriots. The future belongs to sovereign and independent nations who protect their citizens, respect their neighbors, and honor the differences that make each country special and unique.

Trump did not speak against sovereign nations helping their neighbors. On the contrary, the U.S.A. has quite a record of generously helping other countries.

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#146

That’s as poor an understatement as any I’ve read. The UN is totally useless. It should simply be discarded as such and the money spent on projects which would actually improve the lot of the masses who live in the under-privileged countries via Christian organizations which take their mission seriously.

#148

Of course not.

#149

Well, I am certainly all for individuals supporting honest charities worldwide, if that’s what you mean by “globalism.” But as I say, that’s not what I mean by globalism.

I elaborated on my serious concerns about another way in which the word “policy” (in the definition of “globalism” which I shared) may also be taken: a way that leads to impositions mandated from above, not free will charity offered from below! (And I think this is the real, majority view about what the promotion of a "policy of placing the interests of the entire world above those of individual nations” actually entails–by both those in favor and against globalism.)

Well, I would agree with you, to the extent that a given accusation of a conspiracy (“an evil plan formulated in secret”) has been asserted falsely.

But I would reassert my belief that the devil is real, intelligent, and on the prowl with an agenda (which I laid out in the original post of this thread).

Whether his agenda is a “conspiracy,” I’m not quite sure. After all, the devil and his plans are OPENLY identified and warned against in every copy of the Bible, so an “open conspiracy” would seem to be a contradiction in terms.

Speaking of that contradiction in terms, The Open Conspiracy was the title of a popular book written in 1928 by H. G. Wells (author also of The Time Machine, The Island of Doctor Moreau, The Invisible Man, and The War of the Worlds).

As Wikipedia summarizes about The Open Conspiracy (with my emphases),

The book is, in Wells’s words, a "scheme to thrust forward and establish A HUMAN CONTROL OVER THE DESTINIES OF LIFE and liberate it from its present dangers, uncertainties and miseries." It proposes that largely as the result of scientific progress, a common vision of a world “politically, socially and economically unified” is emerging among educated and influential people, and that this can be the basis of “a world revolution aiming at universal peace, welfare and happy activity” that can result in the establishment of a “world commonwealth”. This is to be achieved by “drawing together a proportion of all or nearly all the functional classes in contemporary communities in order to weave the beginnings of a world community out of their selection.” This will ultimately "be a world religion."

In a similar vein, the late New Age author Marilyn Ferguson wrote The Aquarian Conspiracy in 1980. (In 1985 she was the keynote speaker at the the “Spirit of Peace" conference, along with Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama. All sponsored by the U.N.)

Well-intentioned though they may be, these global schemes for a man-made utopia are “earthly, unspiritual, demonic” (James 3:15).

Speaking again of how both the devil and his end-times plans are openly identified and warned against in every copy of the Bible, I leave it to the reader to decide if the following verses support a true accusation of a conspiracy all around us, or a false accusation of such:

2 Corinthians 4:4a
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers,

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

2 Timothy 2:25-26
25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

1 Peter 5:8
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Again, as a futurist, this is what I foresee in the world’s future:

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. THEY PERISH BECAUSE they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

#150

Speaking of the role of global politics in seeking a man-made utopia, I found this article by Joshua Philipp of The Epoch Times to be of interest:

Nazism, Fascism, and Socialism Are All Rooted in Communism

In it, Philipp says,

The concept of a “far left” that is opposed to a “far right” is false. The systems placed on the two ends of that spectrum, including socialism, fascism, and Nazism, are all rooted in communism. And all of them share beliefs in core communist concepts, including state collectivism, planned economies, and class struggle.
…

The idea was that a communist regime would use the absolute power of the socialist “dictatorship of the proletariat” to destroy all values, all religion, all institutions, and all traditions—which would theoretically lead to the communist “utopia.”

In other words, socialism is the political system, and communism is the ideological goal. This is why followers of communism argue that “true communism” has never been achieved. The system has thus far failed to utterly destroy human morals and beliefs, although it has taken the lives of more than 100 million people over the last 100 years
…

The conflict that later took place between the various systems during World War II was not a battle of opposite ideologies, but instead a fight over which interpretation of communism would prevail.

According to “The Road to Serfdom” by F.A. Hayek, “The conflict between the fascist or national-socialist and the older socialist parties must indeed very largely be regarded as the kind of conflict which is bound to arise between rival socialist factions.”

We can thank historical revisionism and plenty of mental gymnastics for the current narrative that socialism is somehow separate from Nazism [National Socialism] and fascism and, even more so, the belief that these concepts are somehow divorced from their communist origins.

#151

Just my observation that “globalism” tends to be anti-God since it seems to be promoted by leftists who seem to be generally anti-God.

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