BTW - I was referring only to the 2 verses in the Psalm, not the entire OT.
1 Like
Yes Dave… Psa 137 is a song, a lament, and dirge. Only the uninitiated (say like the rabid atheist or shallow-minded believer who follows them down that same reactionary rabbit-trail) tie that text to somehow being reflective of a supposed divine sanction; it was a retributive expression reflecting the depths of their own catastrophe… again, albeit brought upon themselves because of their own disobedience.
1 Like
How the hell does someone read scripture by the spirit as opposed to just reading the Damn words? Your posts are borderline insane.
Think what you want but there are realistic views as to how we humans relate to scripture, God, and others.
We need more dirges… Need to look at the old ones.
In Revelation 16 God torments people through the plagues in an effort to get them to repent and I would imagine some would also die as a result of them and the earthquake of verse 18.
The trumpets and vials are an attempt to get people to repent during the tribulation. He does kill people through His angels because of their allegiance to the anti-Christ and their refusal to repent. Revelation 9 is just one example.
Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
1 Like
God doesn’t threaten, or send plagues, or kill, to get people to repent. His modus operandi to bring about repentance is kindness (Romans 2:4). God warns about what the devil will do: He doesn’t threaten about terrible things–things which He Himself would never do. And He always invites repentance from sin, and offers rescue to people whom the legalistic devil has come in to afflict and destroy, through the open door provided to the devil by their sins.
As I argued in my essay to initiate this thread, I believe the prophets were mistaken whenever they ascribed “the sword, famine, and plague” to God:
The four angels you reference are fallen angels, who are in rebellion against God: they are NOT serving God.
As I indicate on my pdf chart of Revelation (RevChart1997BloomfieldSeiss.pdf), the “trumpets sounded” and the “vials poured” are one and the same event, described from two different perspectives—seen from above as trumpets, and from below as vials. So regarding the sixth plague, Rev. 9:13-17 parallels Rev. 16:12-16.
Eventually, two hundred million evil spirits will gain release from the area of the River Euphrates, which is the very area where fallen angels incited sinful relations with mankind (eventually followed by the devil sending the Flood of Noah); and it’s the same area where later, after the Flood, mankind rebelled against God in the construction of the Tower of Babel.
God is always an active “disallower" and disabler of evil. God’s only posture toward evil is to disallow it on every level. So these imprisoned spirits will remain imprisoned only until the great Day of the Lord (Jude 6-7). Then they will be able to come out and join the “party” because mankind will provide them an open door through its wide scale sin, even as happened before the Flood of Noah. Joel described these spirits as “locusts.” But unfortunately Joel misbelieved that they are sent by God (Joel 2:1-11).
Regarding the next plague, the seventh, I have said this:
God is not bloodthirsty, but the devil is. And Antichrist’s followers will become willing killers.
As to the idea that Muslims will be the biggest antagonists of the last days: Muslims are not the only ones with a messed up view of “God.” In my initial essay (at the beginning of this thread), I referenced Christian adherents of “dominion theology.”
As an example of someone who confuses God for the devil, Mike Bickle of the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City is a well known evangelical in the New Apostolic Reformation’s dominionist movement. I offer the following revealing YouTube video excerpt of Bickle for your consideration. In this clip, Bickle teaches that God is preparing the Church to kill people—literally, not figuratively. As he says in it,
“I’m talking about the prayer of faith that heals; and I’m talking about the prayer of faith that kills ”:
(Watch especially right after the 4:30 minute mark of this “IHOP TV podcast 3.” And please note:
the “seven spheres of life” = the seven spheres, or seven mountains, of dominionism.)
Nice!
1 Like
That was an interesting/troubling video. I constantly see all kinds of craziness coming out of faulty OT interpretation, but even more out of the Book of Revelation - like in the vid - being used to justify nuttiness - in this case, killing humans that one group feels are under God’s curse.
Killing. We might as well be Muslims once we’ve gone that far.
1 Like
Love your post but when have we not had hard times throughout history? The Black Plague, slavery , massacres,starvation, continual wars, WW1, WW2, extermination of Jews and others groups, more wars, Communism, Stalin,Hitler,Mao,Pol Pot, Kim 1, KIm2 , KIm 3 etc etc,
1 Like
Hum! “1,479 views since Dec 3, 2008”
This is truely, an “extremely popular” - YouTube video. 
With all due respect to Mike Bickle as probably a genuine Christian (although a false teacher), here is an article in The Guardian online about the pre-war underestimation of Adolf Hitler as “a lightweight,” by a history professor at the University of Sheffield:
The four angels you reference are fallen angels, who are in rebellion against God: they are NOT serving God.
They could be fallen angels, and they may NOT be. Even if they are, the angel that sounds the trumpet is responsible for their release, so it’s kind of like the good guy opening the prison doors that lets the bad guys out. No matter who they are, they serve a divine purpose.
As I indicate on my pdf chart of Revelation (RevChart1997BloomfieldSeiss.pdf), the “trumpets sounded” and the “vials poured” are one and the same event, described from two different perspectives—seen from above as trumpets, and from below as vials. So regarding the sixth plague, Rev. 9:13-17 parallels Rev. 16:12-16.
I’m not one who believes in the overlapping of prophecy. By reading Revelation 9:13-17 and 16:12-16 there are clear distinctions and hardly similar at all. Why would it be necessary to repeat a prophecy using completely different symbols? Revelation 9 is the 2nd woe of the 6th trumpet. Revelation 16:12-16 is 6th vial of the 7th trumpet. The only thing similar between the two is the mention of the river Euphrates. In 9:14 the Angels at the river are loosed, in 16:12 the river is dried up. There are no similarities whatsoever between the two.
This is how overlapping prophecies in Revelation looks like.
Seals)1 2 3 4 5 6 7=(Trumpets)1 2 3 4 5 6 7=(Bowls)1 2 3 4 5 6 7. You are right on cue with that and I don’t believe it.
Eventually, two hundred million evil spirits will gain release from the area of the River Euphrates, which is the very area where fallen angels incited sinful relations with mankind (eventually followed by the devil sending the Flood of Noah); and it’s the same area where later, after the Flood, mankind rebelled against God in the construction of the Tower of Babel.
I have no idea how you associate the flood of Noah with the 200 million, and I’m not sure your analogy of the flood is correct. I perceive the 200 mil as demon possessed people, namely Arabs and Muslim’s.
God is always an active “disallower" and disabler of evil. God’s only posture toward evil is to disallow it on every level. So these imprisoned spirits will remain imprisoned only until the great Day of the Lord (Jude 6-7). Then they will be able to come out and join the “party” because mankind will provide them an open door through its wide scale sin, even as happened before the Flood of Noah. Joel described these spirits as “locusts.” But unfortunately Joel misbelieved that they are sent by God (Joel 2:1-11).
God will use the anti-christ to get Israel to turn back to him. He is God’s battle axe. These locust represent the Arabs/Muslims. In Arabic the word “Arab” and “locust” sound similar.
In Judges 6:5 and 7:12 the Midianites and the Amalekites, who are likely related to the Ishmaelites, are Arab tribes and are associated with grasshoppers or ‘LOCUST.’
Gesenius says that the Midianites are of an Arab nation, and the Amalekites are the descendants of Esau.
In Genesis 37:25 the Midianites seem identified with the Ishmaelites. Strong’s says Midian or Midianite’ = “strife.”
Nahum says about the Arabs… “Make thyself many as the locusts.” Nah.3:5
The KJV translation of Amos 7:1 from the 9th century Masoretic text looks like this -
“Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king’s mowings.”
An earlier translation of the Old Testament into Greek, known as the Septuagint renders Amos 7:1 like this -
“Thus the Lord showed me, and behold a swarm of locusts were coming, and behold, one of the young devastating locusts was Gog, the King.”
Amos 7:1 suggests that Gog is the king of the demon locusts - the Arabs and Muslims.
Regarding the next plague, the seventh, I have said this:
Jesus’ divinity from 3 synoptic texts
In seeing that the Bible is part of a progressive revelation, I know now that God doesn’t threaten and kill, He warns and rescues. He is not an arsonist, but a heroic fireman. As Murray also says in God vs. Evil,
God is not bloodthirsty, but the devil is. And Antichrist’s followers will become willing killers.
As to the idea that Muslims will be the biggest antagonists of the last days: Muslims are not the only ones with a messed up view of “God.” In my initial essay (at the beginning of this thread), I referenced Christian adherents of “dominion theology.”
As an example of someone who confuses God for the devil, Mike Bickle of the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City is a well known evangelical in the New Apostolic Reformation’s dominionist movement. I offer the following revealing YouTube video excerpt of Bickle for your consideration. In this clip, Bickle teaches that God is preparing the Church to kill people—literally, not figuratively. As he says in it,
“I’m talking about the prayer of faith that heals; and I’m talking about the prayer of faith that kills ”:
There are dozens of examples where God has killed people. It’s estimated that God killed 20 million people in the flood of Noah. He destroyed Lot’s wife. Except for one family, Genesis clearly states that God was responsible for the destruction of of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. God struck Hananiah dead. Because of the Pharaoh he struck the firstborn dead. He drowned the Egyptian Army. He killed 24,000 Israelite women. To punish David He killed David’s and Bathsheba’s baby boy. He killed 185,000 soldiers by the angel of the Lord while they slept who were at war with Israel, etc., etc…and then some.
He will kill people in the tribulation who follow the beast.
One more thing. Muslim’s call the time we live in “the third Jihad” AKA the third and final round of the Crusades. A time is coming when these jihadist will commit the abominations of the earth and I believe Christians will have to take up arms against them.
I haven’t watched the video yet but I’m going to now.
YouTube is a promoter of misinformation. It has caused many to believe in flat earth and thousands of other lies. Other than music, I stay away from it.
The OP is quite long so I’ll address a few things at a time.
Hermano said,
As a futurist, I recognize that there will yet be a literal, physical temple rebuilt in Jerusalem.
The news media will occasionally carry stories about Jewish plans to rebuild a Temple in Jerusalem.
There really isn’t one passage that says a temple would be rebuilt. The idea comes from Daniel 9 and 2 Thes. 2. There’s no need for the rebuilding of a Jewish Temple. All the prophecies will take place in the Dome area and the Al’aqsa mosque.
Muslim’s want to make East Jerusalem and the Dome of the Rock complex the Islamic Capital of their world Caliphate. East Jerusalem will once again be invaded by the Arabs and the Wailing Wall will be destroyed. The Dome ‘sits upon’ Mount Moriah which is at the geographical center of Jerusalem’s seven mountains.
Islam is antichrist.
Around the octagonal structure of the Dome of the Rock is a long classical Arabic inscription that says that God has no begotten son, thus denying that Jesus is the Son of God. Inscriptions on the octagonal structure of the Dome are anti-Christ. They say…
- There is no God but Allah.
- God has no son; He begetteth not.
- God taketh not unto Himself a son.
- God has no associate.
- Muhammad is the messenger of God.
- Allah will preside on Judgment Day.
One day soon, a literal, physical man, prophetically referred to as “Antichrist” (and, “The Assyrian,” Is. 10:5; “The Little Horn,” Dan. 7:8; “The Chaldean,” Hab. 1:6; “The Man of Sin,” 2 Thes. 2:3; “The Beast,” Rev. 13:1) will come onto the world stage—and be hailed as a hero.
You are correct. The Assyrian/Ancient Assyria is today a land dominated by Islam. The little horn is said to come from the realm of Grecia, and the Chaldean/Babylonian of Habakkuk 1 describes Islam’s goal of world domination, Islamic terrorism, and their form of worship!
Habakkuk 1:9 -
“They shall come all for violence:” (Terrorism)…
“their faces shall sup up as the east wind,” (Islamic form of worship)…
“and they shall gather the captivity as the sand.” (World domination)"
Terrorism, their form of worship, and goal of world domination ALL IN ONE VERSE! The ‘east wind’ is always associated with destruction. Sup up means to do so as a horde or an assembly. Islam is the only religion where it’s followers “sup their face up to the east” even 5 times a day.
“The east wind is always associated with evil destructive wind.” E. Swedenborg (1688-1772) said, “That wind, and especially the east wind, signifies nothing else than the dispersion of falsities and evils.”
He will be “the man of the hour” when he defeats three opponents (Daniel 7:20-22), and brings the world back from the brink of total chaos and destruction: but it will all just be a great deception orchestrated by Satan to gain his man acceptance. After that, Antichrist will set out to deliver on promises he has made to his supporters: promises of vast, seductive, ill-gotten riches (Daniel 7:8-11, Habakkuk 1, 1 Thes. 5:1-4, Rev. 3:16-19 1).
He won’t bring the world back from the brink of total chaos because he is NOT a global dictator. He will unite the Arab Middle-East and attempt to unite the Shia and Sunni sects of Islam. Other than those forced to, only Muslim’s will accept him. Islamic terrorism, like tribulation, IS worldwide.
Under Antichrist’s authority, old world empires will be amazingly, astoundingly resurrected; and will then face their final destruction (Compare Dan. 7 with Rev. 13:1-2). Of course, all this will take some time.
The beast of Revelation 13 and 17, and the beast of Daniel 7 are not comprised of ancient world empires. These beast are complete end-time entities. The horns and heads do not represent a progression of world empires culminating in a final one. They are kings and kingdoms ALL on earth at the same time.
The Antichrist will not be recognized by most people for who he really is (that is, he will not ‘‘be revealed,” 2 Thes. 2:7-9) until AFTER the first Rapture—because his prolonged bubble of peace, prosperity, and unbridled sensuality, will have been burst by the Rapture (Matt. 24:38-42; 1 Thes. 5:3; Rev. 6:4). It is only then that he will begin to openly persecute the remaining Christians, as well as all who later become Christians (Rev. 12:13-17). By that point, one would imagine that there will be wide recognition of who and what he really is.
The antichrist will not be recognized by many because most people are expecting someone who he is not…a global dictator from the EU etc., etc.
Well, the video that Hermano posted - is from YouTube.
YouTube…like FaceBook, Instagram, LinkedIn, etc. - are social media platforms. Google does have some standards, they impose. For example, no hate videos, sexual explicit videos, etc. But they do allow zombies, space aliens, monsters, vampires and werewolves - to post socially relevant content.
At the end of the day, I look how popular a movie (i.e. via IMdB and Rotten Tomatoes), video, Amazon book, etc. - really is. And how collectively folks, have rated it.
And if we are popular enough on YouTube, offers might come pouring in. Like to be a zombie extra, on The Walking Dead or Fear The Walking Dead.
Maybe Islam is but if you want to test the soundness of this listen to Chris White Ministries take on the AntiChrist and see what you think. He is a futurist.
I brought up his page and can’t find anything on the subject. Maybe you can give me a link or tell me what his take is.
Sorry, bibleprophecytalk.com and at the bottom of the first page he has videos or audios re Islamic Antichrist beliefs debunked which i think are good. I suspect Islam is Satan’s religion because a lot of it is opposite of Christianity and Satan is a great counterfeiter but reasoning is one thing and specific biblical evidence may be another.
Chris White doesn’t use any specific biblical evidence to prove anything. I listened to the video.
I have discussed this with Don Koenig who also has a page, and a much better one than Chris White, called, "Debunking the Islamic Antichrist.
I don’t use Islamic prophecy to prove much of anything about the end. I use bible passages and their similarities to Islam, to show the origin of the end-time beast. However, I have no doubt that the Madhi, dajjal, or the Muslim jesus could play a role because like White says, the similarities between Christian and Islamic prophecy are very similar.
It doesn’t matter whether todays Muslim’s derive their eschatology from the Koran or the Hadiths, both are demonic and both influence the minds of fanatical Muslim’s. White goes about debunking the Islamic anti-christ the wrong way. He spends too much time in the Hadiths, too much time on Richardson’s book, too much time understanding Islamic prophecy, and spends very little time in the bible to see what IT actually says ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF THE BEASTS.
I’ve never read a book by anyone about the Islamic anti-christ. What I do is look at the scriptures FIRST and base my interpretations from there. He believes the “last Roman Emperor” is likely the anti-christ but he doesn’t tell us why other than comparing it to Islamic prophecy!
There’s not ONE verse of end-time prophecy that points to Rome in any way whatsoever. All the evidence points to Islam. Once we nail down the ‘religion’ of the beast, things begin to fall into place. Rome, Catholicism, the EU, or America will NOT produce the men of sin. Also -
The kingdom of the anti-Christ is NOT worldwide, he is NOT a global dictator, and there is NOT a one world religion or one world government coming. The anti-Christ and his kingdom is a Mid-East Islamic Caliphate, and possibly TWO Caliphates. One is the southern Meccan/ Saudi Caliphate - possibly the king of the South of Daniel 11 situated in and around the Arabian Peninsula. The other a more powerful Northern Caliphate, possibly a unification of Iran and Turkey i.e. the king of the North of Daniel 11. That’s how I see it for now and have no problem changing my mind about some of these things.
As far as Christ White goes and how he confronts this issue - I’m not impressed. Makes me want to put my website in book form.
Joel Richardson has taken some of my content (Daniel 2) and put it in his book because nothing I write will ever be copyright.