The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Temple, the Antichrist, and the Structure of Revelation

That’s cool. I remember taking a class, in business ethics. And we had to do a presentation project, for the class. Well, I was teamed up with another male. We decided to do a debate, on the porn industry. And I took the side, of the porn producer. And I even had a facial disguise. Well, the professor (who had 2 PhD degrees) - loved it. And he couldn’t get it, out of his mind. He said my disguise, reminded him of someone from another planet. Needless to say, I DON"T endorse the porn industry - or porn - for that matter. :crazy_face:

But a hot looking female zombie might be too much temptation - even for me!

Answer: more ways of talking about the same thing, with different angles and details, should help us get a grasp on a complex topic (and, presumably, help us all get on the same page). In the same vein, shouldn’t we be glad we have four gospel accounts, not just one?

In Daniel 2, 7, and 8, we see three different discussions of the same topic: the Medo-Persian empire being displaced by Greece

Let’s consider all three. I believe, like many/most futurists, that the two arms of silver in the statue of Daniel 2 represent the kings of Media and Persia, who would then be supplanted by the trunk of bronze, the Greeks (Alexander the Great).

And that the bear of Daniel 7, which gets up on one side (its dominant side), also represents the Medo-Persian empire which would, to repeat, be supplanted by the Greeks, that is, by the leopard with 4 wings and four heads: Alexander the Great, the Hellenizer who attempted to spread the “superior” Greek culture to the barbarians (which made an imperfect mixture, as suggested by the spots of the leopard).

And yet again, in Daniel 8, to repeat, the defeat of the Medo-Persia by the Greeks is represented this time by a ram with two horns, and one horn being longer (dominant)—explicitly stated by the angel Gabriel to represent “the kings of Media and Persia” (Daniel 8:20). The angel Gabriel goes on to explain to Daniel that the king of Greece (Alexander), represented by a fast-moving (floating) goat with one single horn, would one day defeat the Medo-Persian empire—which Alexander the Great indeed later did, with a much smaller force, around 331 b.c.

Alexander died soon thereafter at age 33, at the height of his power, and we read in the vision of Daniel 8 that the horn of the goat is broken off, and replaced by four horns. With Alexander represented in Daniel 7 by the leopard, we also see the number four with the four heads of the leopard—the number “4” perhaps standing for his four generals: Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus, and Ptolemy, who later took over the conquered territories after Alexander’s death.

So yes, there is some repetition and overlap with the visions, in order to provide added details. The first beast of Daniel 7 (Babylon), the lion, loses its eagles’ wings— apparently signifying no further expansion. The second beast, the bear, Medo-Persia, chronologically follows after Babylon. The third beast, the leopard, Greece, chronologically follows after Medo-Persia, and the fourth beast with iron teeth, the Roman empire, chronologically follows after Greece—and as we now know, later divided into many nations: nations in Europe, the Mediterranean, and Asia (the Near East and Middle East).

So, to sum up the alternative prophetic symbols for Medo-Persia and Greece in Daniel 2, 7, and 8:

  • Medo-Persia: Silver arms (Daniel 2); Bear with two sides (Daniel 7); Ram with two horns (Daniel 8).

  • Greece: Bronze trunk (Daniel 2); Leopard with four heads (Daniel 7); Goat with 1 horn that is replaced by 4 horns (Daniel 8).

And how does this relate to the Antichrist? Let’s consider the horns of Daniel 8, followed by the horns of Daniel 7.

Regarding the futurist perspective of an end-times man termed Antichrist being foretold and represented in Daniel as a “horn”:

1. From Daniel 8

Daniel 8 (NIV):
8 The goat [Alexander] became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.
9 Out of one of them came ANOTHER HORN [Antichrist], which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land.
10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.
11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down.
12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

The Interpretation of the Vision

15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man.
16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”
17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns THE TIME OF THE END.”
18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.
19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed TIME OF THE END.
20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia.
21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king.
22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.
23 “IN THE LATTER PART OF THEIR REIGN, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, A MASTER OF INTRIGUE, WILL ARISE.
24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people.
25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”
27 I, Daniel, was worn out. I lay exhausted for several days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding.

Many Jewish scholars believe this wicked man has already come and gone: Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a Seleucid king—a descendant of one of the four horns of the Greek goat. They believe Daniel’s prophecy was fulfilled by this man’s 168 b.c. desecration of the Second Temple, when he put up a statue of Zeus in the Temple.
(Recall: the First Temple: Solomon’s, which was destroyed by the Babylonians.
The Second Temple: Zerubbabel’s, which was later refurbished by Herod, but then destroyed by the Romans.)

But the angel Gabriel explains that this “master of intrigue” will come at “the time of the END.” And Jesus later affirmed that this man was yet future (Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14). So, it would appear to futurists that no such evil man has yet fulfilled these prophecies, and so the Antichrist is yet to come—from out of somewhere in the territory that comprised the conquests of Alexander the Great.

2. From Daniel 7

Daniel 7 (NIV):
6 “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast [Roman Empire]—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.
8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was ANOTHER HORN, A LITTLE ONE, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.

His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10
A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.
12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He [JESUS] approached the Ancient of Days [THE FATHER] and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

The Interpretation of the Dream

15 “I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me.
16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the meaning of all this.
“So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things:
17 ‘The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth.
18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’
19 “Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left.
20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
21 As I watched, this HORN was waging war against the holy people and defeating them,
22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, AND THE TIME CAME WHEN THEY POSSESSED THE KINGDOM.
23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it.
24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.
25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.
27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’
28 “This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself.”

Two enigmas:

  1. I have earlier shown from Daniel 9:24-27 that the Antichrist is from the people who destroy Jerusalem and the Temple (the Romans), and also today from Daniel 8 that he (Antichrist) is from the outgrowth of the Greek empire of Alexander the Great.
  2. These empires have come and gone, and yet it would also seem, to futurists, that the Antichrist is yet to come during the time of these same kingdoms.

For the first enigma, we may consider that the Antichrist will come from some place the geographically overlaps both the Greek and Roman empires, presumably from somewhere within the area of the Eastern Roman Empire. I have earlier suggested he will arise in Lebanon, with supporting Scriptures, but I don’t want to be dogmatic about it.

For the second enigma, Daniel’s statue will be standing again when Jesus returns (Daniel 2:35, 44-45): so the areas of those former empires must again rise up and be active under Antichrist; this will be “the latter part of their reign.” Most of the coming prophetic activity will be in the Middle East.

Babylon in Iraq will be rebuilt under Antichrist and become the premier commercial center of the world. This could not happen during times of war. Some day soon, Antichrist will seemingly avert the annihilation of the world, by uprooting three horns. But he will not be a fanatical Muslim: his religion will be money. Magic, pleasure, materialism, sensuality, peace, and prosperity will be his hooks, not the sword of Allah. His religion will be (figuratively) a woman, and her name is “wickedness” (Zech. 5:5-11), and “Jezebel.”

But my biggest concern right now is not what’s going on in the Muslim world of the Middle East, but the growing apostasy seen especially in the evangelical charismatic churches.

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. 2 Peter 2:3.

Never heard of the “NAR”? Then it’s high time you began to inform yourself about this arguably dangerous movement, and right here’s a good place to start! After all, teachers of the New Apostolic Reformation are methodically taking over the evangelical world, and they are “coming to a church near YOU.” I would argue that what has been termed the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), which initially began in charismatic circles, should be on everyone’s radar as a manifestation of the apostasy among Christians prophesied to develop shortly before Antichrist is revealed (2 Thes. 2:3).

Everyone should seek intimacy with Jesus. But the problem is, there are lying spirits leading hungry, well-intentioned—but undiscerning—people toward clever counterfeits: a false Jesus and a false gospel (2 Cor. 11:4). And that’s what is happening to those moving with the NAR. It gets confusing, because there are many good people caught up in this movement, and there is certainly a lot of biblical truth mixed in with their errors.

And although we are not to be judgmental or condemning (Greek krinō, e.g., Mt. 7:1) against those with whom we disagree, we are to judge/discern (Greek anakrinō ) all things, since we have the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:15-16).

Two factions in the Church

Dave Hunt and T.A. McMahon stated in their book, The Seduction of Christianity (1986):

Two factions are now emerging within the church. One side adheres to the belief that an apostasy is coming for the church in the last days, and with it a great tribulation and God’s judgment for the world. We are to rescue as many as we can before it is too late, calling them to citizenship in heaven. On the other side are those, equally sincere, who see the primary call of the church as solving social, economic, and political problems. Although they are also concerned to see souls saved, the conversion of the masses provides the means for taking over the world for Christ, taking dominion back from Satan, and thereby establishing the kingdom in order that Christ might return as king to reign at last.

Yes, both factions are “equally sincere.” But they can’t both be equally right. The description of that second faction well covers today’s dominionists of the NAR. There is a faction following the Holy Spirit, and a faction following the Antichrist spirit.

Seven churches, seven periods of Church history

In trying to understand today’s church scene, we will be helped by recognizing the relevance of the book of Revelation. Some scholars (e.g., Arthur E. Bloomfield, Joseph A. Seiss) believe the letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor (modern Turkey) found in the first four chapters of Revelation, served multiple purposes. While those letters were addressed to seven long ago local churches, to encourage and correct them, they also prophetically anticipated later developments in the Church, by offering parallels between the characteristics of those churches with coming epochs of Church history. This prophetic laying out in advance of the future of the Church shows seven stages of the Church universal, beginning back at the time of those ancient churches, and going right past us, up to the time of the (first) Rapture. The correspondence looks like this:

  1. Ephesus, the church of the first love.
  2. Smyrna, the subsequent time of widespread persecution.
  3. Pergamos, the infiltration of the clergy-laity mentality of Romanism (the Nicolaitans).
  4. Thyatira, the Romanism of the Dark Ages (Jezebel), is firmly established.
  5. Sardis, the church is reformed. Here, Jezebel is dropped.
  6. Philadelphia, a period of revivals, missionary outreach, and church growth.
  7. Laodicea, the self-satisfied church of the last days.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.” (Rev. 2:20).

Hence, for example, in Revelation 2, it is contended that Thyatira corresponds to the Church during what would be the coming time of the entrenchment of Jezebel, with her “Romish”-style mystical, ceremonial, political, legalistic religion; but that Sardis in Revelation 3 corresponds to the following time when she would be cast out of the true Church, during the Protestant Reformation. Cast out, but by no means dead.

Jezebel and the NAR

We recall that the original, literal Jezebel was a Phoenician princess, the daughter of Ethbaal, ‘king of Tyre,’ ‘king of the Sidonians.’ (Interestingly, both Tyre and Sidon thrive to this day on the coast of modern Lebanon). Jezebel married Ahab, king of Israel, and led him into idolatry and murder. Also, she persecuted the true prophets of God. She is remembered for her idolatry, her witchcraft, and her makeup! (2 Kings 9:22, 30.)

And whereas the glorious woman of Rev. 12:1 symbolically represents the true Church in the last days—

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

—“Jezebel,” an inglorious woman, symbolically represents an alternative, seductive, false church, which had already begun back in Babylon. Jezebel” actually began in Babylon (Iraq); and one day, she will end in Babylon (Iraq).

That woman Jezebel, warned against in the letter to Thyatira, is the very same woman who will eventually come to full fruition and strength as a major religious and commercial center in Babylon, as we see, for example, in Revelation 17:1-2,

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”

The woman Jezebel figuratively represents an evil, centralized religious and economic system that will fully ripen under the Antichrist; but we can detect her spirit even now working inside the true Church, drawing people away toward herself via, for example, the NAR, with hooks of power and wealth. This ecumenical Jezebel spirit seduces followers with the offer of unity…at the expense of truth.

The temptation of power

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’” Matthew 4:8-10.

Do you believe there is a devil? If so, do you believe he (or his helpers) could ever tempt you yourself with power, wealth, and success—perhaps offered to you as though for noble purposes?

Power is very seductive. We remember that young Saul started out hiding among the baggage, but as king ended up erecting a monument in his own honor (1 Sam. 10:22, 15:12).

There are many ambitious, power-hungry people in the world. They tend to rise to the top in politics, in business, in education, in the arts and the media; and also in the religious world, where they strive to influence and keep the the support of followers and their families, and even to control them. Certainly, many, if not most, of these power-hungry people are well-intentioned, at least in their own eyes. But for how many of them is the devil actually behind their success? —and the devil, sooner or later, always calls in his debts, with interest; sooner or later, the devil will be worshiped by the carnally minded, unless they repent (Rev. 13:4).

However, we Christians are called to recognize, and reject, seductive offers from the devil. We are ‘to worship the Lord our God, and serve him only.’

Where does bad doctrine come from?

I strongly disagree with the doctrine of the NAR, and in later comments want to explain to you why you should watch out for these people, and try to reason with those being drawn to them. But first, let me assert that nearly all bad doctrine stems from misunderstanding about God’s nature, especially in distinction to Satan’s nature. The truth of this assertion will be foundational to the remaining arguments in this essay.

Most believers rightly recognize that Satan exists; nevertheless, many people confuse God with the devil, whenever they mistakenly attribute evil to God, and call it “good.”

But it should also be remembered there are an increasing number of believers who no longer think Satan is even real anymore, having so grown in erudition and sophistication that they now insist all evil comes only from mankind, without any malevolent supernatural influence. (For example, Michael Hardin, a popularizer of the philosophy of René Girard, appears a very reasonable Christian when he argues that the devil is “not a person but a principle.”)

Either way, because of the blinders of false doctrine arising from fundamental misunderstanding about God’s good nature (or, from disregard of the very existence of the devil), many Christians, including those in the NAR (“New Apostolic Reformation”) are rapidly being overtaken by significant world trends and events, which they either misinterpret, or miss altogether. And because they do not understand, they do not recognize and resist the spirit of Antichrist.

You’re just repeating the typical interpretation of Daniel 2, and what you believe AGAIN. 20 years ago I use to believe what you do, and 20 years ago I realized I was wrong and changed my mind.

People believe the arms of silver represent the Medo-Persian Empire because of the TWO arms of silver. The two are a depiction of the statue, NOT a description of the actual kingdom. The ONLY description of the kingdom, or arms of silver, is that it is LAND INFERIOR to Babylon and nothing else. There is no doubt that the word “inferior” is the word LAND coupled with the word BELOW.
ara
You cannot explain HOW the Medo-Persian Empire WAS “land inferior” to Babylon because it wasn’t! AND - it was also short-lived at 6 years. Neither have you addressed the fact that Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah’s prophecies ascribe the taking of Babylon to DARIUS and NOT Cyrus.

And yet again, in Daniel 8, to repeat, the defeat of the Medo-Persia by the Greeks is represented this time by a ram with two horns, and one horn being longer (dominant)—explicitly stated by the angel Gabriel to represent “the kings of Media and Persia” (Daniel 8:20).

You can’t see how the Ram in Daniel 8 developed from one SMALLER horn (Medes) rising FIRST - and a LARGER horn (Persians) rising afterwards? The kingdoms are described as horns or separate kingdoms that merged into one - the Ram. Scripture supports this in several different ways.

Daniel 8 explicitly describes “the land inferior kingdom of the Medes.” You cannot deny that Daniel also explicitly states that DARIUS and the Medes took out Babylon. There are no scriptures that mention of Cyrus and the Persians having taken part in the taking of Babylon. The Medes and Persians were TWO separate kingdoms and even had their own languages. They merged into the Ram 6 years after Darius took out Babylon. The bible quotes Ezra and Darius the Mede ruling for 6 years.

To refresh your memory -
Daniel 5:31
“And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old.”

Isaiah 13:17
Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them.” (Babylon)

Jeremiah 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up THE SPIRIT OF THE KINGDOM OF THE MEDES: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple.


When Cyrus and the Persians came in, the battle took place in and around the castle and that’s it. Darius and Cyrus agreed to place Darius in charge of the northern province of the kingdom and Cyrus controlled the southern part. Daniel 6:28 PROVES Darius ruled FIRST!

Daniel 6:28
So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, AND (afterwards) in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

How can you disregard - Daniel 6:1!

It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over THE WHOLE KINGDOM - the whole kingdom;

Daniel 9:1
In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

Daniel 11:1
Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.

Ezra 6:15
And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.

And that the bear of Daniel 7, which gets up on one side (its dominant side), also represents the Medo-Persian empire which would, to repeat, be supplanted by the Greeks, that is, by the leopard with 4 wings and four heads: Alexander the Great, the Hellenizer who attempted to spread the “superior” Greek culture to the barbarians (which made an imperfect mixture, as suggested by the spots of the leopard).
So yes, there is some repetition and overlap with the visions, in order to provide added details. The first beast of Daniel 7 (Babylon), the lion, loses its eagles’ wings— apparently signifying no further expansion. The second beast, the bear, Medo-Persia, chronologically follows after Babylon. The third beast, the leopard, Greece, chronologically follows after Medo-Persia, and the fourth beast with iron teeth, the Roman empire, chronologically follows after Greece—and as we now know, later divided into many nations: nations in Europe, the Mediterranean, and Asia (the Near East and Middle East).

To say details needed to be added in Daniel 7 is to say the Daniel 2 prophecy was insufficient and has shortcomings, so I adamantly disagree. There’s no need to have Daniel REPEAT the same prophecy in two completely different visions just to provide ADDED DETAILS. Sorry, but there was nothing lacking in the vision of the Great Statue that required repeating the same message in chapter 7 with four beast.
You have NOT addressed to problem that Daniel’s vision in chapter 7 took place 50 years AFTER Babylon came into power. The fact is that there are certain criteria that a true prophet CANNOT violate, and one is they cannot prophesy about something that already took place, in this case - a kingdom RISING that had risen some 50 years before! Doing so without a doubt makes Daniel a false prophet.

Do you care that several Atheist caught onto this colossal blunder and used it to debunk Daniel and the bible?

One of the major things people disregard about Daniel 2:41 is the word ARAB which describes the iron and clay. How can a Roman or that area be depicted by the word ‘arab’ when it clearly describes an Arab or Arabia?

mixed

But my biggest concern right now is not what’s going on in the Muslim world of the Middle East, but the growing apostasy seen especially in the evangelical charismatic churches.

Apostasy has absolutely nothing to do with churches. I can explain WHY sometime.

I would argue that what has been termed the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), which initially began in charismatic circles, should be on everyone’s radar as a manifestation of the apostasy among Christians prophesied to develop shortly before Antichrist is revealed (2 Thes. 2:3).

Can you show me where ‘Christians’ are implied as being part of the Apostasy of 2 Thes. 2? You quote 2 Thes. 2:3 but all that verse is saying is that the Day of the Lord and the gathering will NOT come until there is an apostasy.

—“Jezebel,” an inglorious woman, symbolically represents an alternative, seductive, false church, which had already begun back in Babylon. “ Jezebel” actually began in Babylon (Iraq); and one day, she will end in Babylon (Iraq).

I’m curious where the scriptural connection is to that.

That woman Jezebel, warned against in the letter to Thyatira, is the very same woman who will eventually come to full fruition and strength as a major religious and commercial center in Babylon, as we see, for example, in Revelation 17:1-2,

Same question - where’s the scriptural connection is to that.

The woman Jezebel figuratively represents an evil, centralized religious and economic system that will fully ripen under the Antichrist; but we can detect her spirit even now working inside the true Church, drawing people away toward herself via, for example, the NAR, with hooks of power and wealth. This ecumenical Jezebel spirit seduces followers with the offer of unity…at the expense of truth.

I would like to know how you tie all this about Jezebel to the church and the anti-christ.

Is there something wrong with ecumenism? Didn’t Jesus encourage Christian unity? There are very few damnable heresies and the NAR doesn’t have any. NAR does have one thing right - Jesus was NOT always truly God and truly man while on earth. In fact, he was never God at all!

As you point out, the Medes and the Persians worked in concert. (It may well be that Cyrus and Darius were actually relatives.) That is why their kingdom is usually referred to as the “Medo-Persian” kingdom, with a hyphen, instead of just the Persian kingdom. The Medes and the Persians are so closely associated as to be indistinguishable, at least, prophetically. The Medes and Persians shared ONE law:

Daniel 6:8, 12, 15
8 Now, Your Majesty, issue the decree and put it in writing so that it cannot be altered—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.”

12 So they went to the king and spoke to him about his royal decree: “Did you not publish a decree that during the next thirty days anyone who prays to any god or human being except to you, Your Majesty, would be thrown into the lions’ den?”

The king answered, “The decree stands—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.”

15 Then the men went as a group to King Darius and said to him, “Remember, Your Majesty, that according to the law of the Medes and Persians no decree or edict that the king issues can be changed.”

Again, this close association is why the Medo-Persian empire is prophetically represented as ONE entity:

-as two silver arms (Dan. 2)
-as a bear with two sides (Dan. 7)
-as a ram with two horns (Dan. 8)

I think you are proving the very point of why God would see the need to repeat certain things to us, sometimes using different illustrations, to help us to understand complicated things He’s trying to say. After all, His prophets had to use the vocabulary of their day when trying to address believers down through the coming generations, even those of us living thousands of years later.

Let me reiterate here that the less-than-perfect author of Revelation did likewise, with God sometimes showing him the same thing more than once: Revelation chapters 4 to 11 chronologically present events from the first Rapture until the Second Coming, and Revelation 12 to 19 offer a non-chronological recapitulation of the same events—with new perspectives and added details. (Please see my suggested Revelation chart, as well as my discussion of the structure of Revelation in the original post.)

I don’t see this as a “problem,” therefore, why would I have addressed it? Again: in Daniel 7, God repeats with animals to a new king (and to us) what he had already said using a statue to show a previous king (and to us) in Daniel 2. God was symbolically laying out, in broad strokes, the political power from the time of Daniel all the way until the Second Coming.

Then who is falling away from what in 2 Thes. 2:3? (Perhaps it has to do with people defecting from…Islam?!)

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB)
Let no one in any way deceive YOU [Christians], for it will not come unless the apostasy [Strong’s G646, Gr. apostasía: turning away, falling away, rebellion, defection, forsaking] comes first, and [comparatively soon thereafter] the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Apostasy is related to the idea of divorce— apostásion [Strong’s G647], a noun derived from the verb aphistēmi [G868: turn away, fall away, withdraw self, depart from].

Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away [aphistēmi] from the living God.

Apostatizing Christians had formerly held (or, perhaps, still profess to hold) a personal relationship with Jesus: but they can’t fall from a place they never occupied.

The results of apostasy (from the true faith, since the Bible is warning believers) seem to be what Jesus has in mind here:

Luke 18:8 (NIV)
“I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

Again, the idea of apostasy from the true faith [into fabricated stories and legalism] is warned against here:

Colossians 2:18-20 (NKJV)
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and NOT holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, WHY, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—

As a side note, I no longer believe that someone who was genuinely born again—even if he goes into error and sin—can lose his salvation. A genuine Christian has died, and—come what may—his real life is now hidden with Christ in God (Col. 3:3). Salvation is a gift, and God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

I do think genuine Christians can certainly be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, and even become false teachers. And they can, like the foolish virgins, fail to keep oil in their lamps, and then carelessly miss the call from above for the first rapture (“Come up here” Rev. 4:1)—a first call which will separate vigilant Christians from carnal, deceived Christians (Rev. 3:10, 12:1-6). But after miraculously surviving 3.5 years (1,260 days) of Tribulation under God’s care, those virgins will definitely be ready to leave in the second rapture (Rev. 7:13-17).

I put a lot of research into this about 15-20 years ago. It gets confusing because there was more than one Darius and more than one Cyrus.

I repeat - They were separate Empires and some proof of that is that they had their own languages. They didn’t merge and become the Ram until 6 years after Darius took Babylon. That’s exactly what the scriptures clearly state, and that’s what I believe. You don’t believe Daniel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah’s prophecy where they explicitly state Darius and the Medes TOOK Babylon?

It doesn’t matter that non biblical text put a hyphen in there. They are prophetically distinguished as separate empires UP TO THE TIME THE RAM DEVELOPED AFTER DARIUS TOOK BABYLON. Cyrus married Darius’ sister or daughter. (Mandane)

Median_empire_map

The Median capital of Ecbatana, today’s Hamadan, was situated at a critical point on the main road between Mesopotamia and the Iranian Plateau, from there leading around the Iranian central desert and eventually to China; as a result the Medes were well connected with the surrounding nations.

The Persians on the other hand initially settled slightly to the west of the Medes, but the first written records, from Assyria, find them in the southern Zagros Mountains, in the area north of the Persian Gulf, around Pars and the ancient [Persian] capitals of Pasargadae and Persepolis, an area away from the main trade roots.

Persians

Again, this close association is why the Medo-Persian empire is prophetically represented as ONE entity:
-as two silver arms (Dan. 2)
-as a bear with two sides (Dan. 7)
-as a ram with two horns (Dan. 8)
One entity 6 years AFTER the Medes took out Babylon!

I think you are proving the very point of why God would see the need to repeat certain things to us, sometimes using different illustrations, to help us to understand complicated things He’s trying to say. After all, His prophets had to use the vocabulary of their day when trying to address believers down through the coming generations, even those of us living thousands of years later.

Let me reiterate here that the less-than-perfect author of Revelation did likewise, with God sometimes showing him the same thing more than once: Revelation chapters 4 to 11 chronologically present events from the first Rapture until the Second Coming, and Revelation 12 to 19 offer a non-chronological recapitulation of the same events—with new perspectives and added details. (Please see my suggested Revelation chart, as well as my discussion of the structure of Revelation in the original post.)

I’ve seen the chart and I disagree with it.
NOTHING in Revelation is a REPEAT. It’s written chronologically. You say that because you believe in the over lapping of prophecies and I don’t.

Daniel 2 is a progression of ancient kingdoms and Daniel 7 is a disclosure of END-TIME kingdoms. We know the fourth 'dreadful and terrible beast is end-time, however, the word BEFORE proves that the lion, bear, and leopard RISE at the same time the fourth beast does. If you disregard the true meaning of the word BEFORE in Daniel 7, like you disregard the true meaning of the words “inferior” and MIXED that means you don’t have a sensible hermeneutic.

I don’t see this as a “problem,” therefore, why would I have addressed it? Again: in Daniel 7, God repeats with animals to a new king (and to us) what he had already said using a statue to show a previous king (and to us) in Daniel 2. God was symbolically laying out, in broad strokes, the political power from the time of Daniel all the way until the Second Coming.

You don’t see a problem that a prophet of God Almighty prophesied about - predicted - a kingdom RISING that rose some 50 years before? I see a problem and it’s called denial. You do know that ONE criteria of a prophet is that they CANNOT prophesy about something coming that was already in existence, - Riiight? Seems to me that if an Atheist knows that a Christian SHOULD!

Then who is falling away from what in 2 Thes. 2:3? (Perhaps it has to do with people defecting from…Islam?!)

It has nothing to do with the church and I can prove it…I’ll start another thread soon. Verses 3b - 12 have nothing to do with Christians and the church. 2 Thes. 2:3b-12 is all about the followers of the man of sin - not Christians.

Apostasy is related to the idea of divorce— apostásion [Strong’s G647], a noun derived from the verb aphistēmi [G868: turn away, fall away, withdraw self, depart from].
Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away [aphistēmi] from the living God.
Apostatizing Christians had formerly held (or, perhaps, still profess to hold) a personal relationship with Jesus: but they can’t fall from a place they never occupied.
The results of apostasy (from the true faith, since the Bible is warning believers) seem to be what Jesus has in mind here:
Aphistemi is not the same thing as apostasy which is only used twice in the NT.
Luke 18:8 (NIV)
“I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
Again, the idea of apostasy from the true faith [into fabricated stories and legalism] is warned against here:

There’s no such thing as apostasy from “the true faith.”

As a side note, I no longer believe that someone who was genuinely born again—even if he goes into error and sin—can lose his salvation. A genuine Christian has died, and—come what may—his real life is now hidden with Christ in God (Col. 3:3). Salvation is a gift, and God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

I believe the scriptures teach a person can lose their salvation.

"The Greatest Impediment Christians have obtaining truth is when they think they already have it."

Hermano,

I apologize for coming on a bit strong but I’ve become a bit battle weary on this issue over the last 17 or so years. My experience with this is that most Christians refuse to change their minds on just about anything because by doing - is an admission of being incorrect.

Sometimes there’s a mountain of scriptural evidence AGAINST what Christian’s believe and a mountain of evidence supporting something else, but to avoid Christians the admission of being wrong, Christians adamantly adhere to what they already believe. If it wouldn’t be for others who read these pages I wouldn’t even bother.

That’s why I’m very appreciative of Christians like Steve who admit they’re undecided - and searching for truth.

I believe that most of the so called ‘prophecy experts’ don’t have much of anything right, and you will find that I’m in disagreement with about everything they teach. I know I don’t have everything right, but I do know I’m on the right track. There are some things I’m unsure of and SOME things that I know I am correct on and Daniel 2 is one of them, and the fact that all four beast of Daniel 7 being future is another.

The fourth “dreadful and terrible” beast of Daniel 7 is - ISLAM!

I remember Richardson wrote or talked about this and he said the characteristics of this beast didn’t apply to Rome. (I’m doing this from memory) Rome was a builder not a destroyer, Rome allowed conquered lands to keep their religions and either Islam or perhaps the Ottoman Empire applied better, i gotta revisit this.

:wink:

The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)

Perhaps your own Christian background is not charismatic; nevertheless, the NAR, although initially seen mostly within the charismatic faction of the Church, is a dynamic, ecumenical, growing movement. It is gobbling up churches and organizations, as it relentlessly promotes the “victorious eschatology” of Dominion theology–a theology which has its roots in the 1940s Latter Rain theology. Both of these theologies generally reject futurism–with its belief in a coming apostasy, a coming human Antichrist, and a coming rapture–as being pessimistic and false.

The charismatic wing of the dominionist movement, which is still somewhat loosely organized, claims to be restoring the offices of apostle and prophet, and uniting the global church under their leadership. They even have their own favored version of Bible, The Passion Translation (see also, TPT), a work in progress. Their goal is to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, by taking over the earth–the so-called “seven mountain mandate"–and then to hand it over to Christ. The seven mountain mandate (SMM) has parallels with Marxism and its tactics.

Who is associated with the NAR?

NAR%20Relationships
(A larger .pdf version of this chart is available here.)

“New Apostolic Reformation” was a moniker coined for the movement by its first chief apostle, the late Professor C. Peter Wagner of Fuller Theological Seminary. Before his death, Wagner handpicked John P. Kelly as his replacement. Kelly is now the “International Convening Apostle” of the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders (ICAL), with central offices in Fort Worth, Texas.

Other ecumenical, dominion theology antecedents of the NAR movement include both the Promise Keepers and the Toronto Blessing movements from the Vineyard churches of the late Pastor John Wimber—who was himself an associate of C. Peter Wagner at Fuller, where they team-taught a class on “signs and wonders.”

Regarding NAR membership, Wikipedia states, “[Although] few, if any, organizations publicly espouse connection to the NAR …there are several individuals often associated with this movement” ( Wikipedia). A more comprehensive list of associated teachers can be found here.

In their book, A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement (2018), R. Douglas Geivett and Holly Pivec point out that,

As with any other large, multi-faceted movement, participants in NAR hold to a spectrum of beliefs, accepting some NAR teachings and being unaware of or rejecting others. Indeed, many people taking part in NAR don’t even realize it is a movement, let alone embrace all the radical teachings surrounding it.

At present, perhaps the chief apologist and equivocator of the NAR is radio host Dr. Michael L. Brown, who, depending on the audience, sometimes argues the NAR doesn’t even exist!

Suffice it to say that the movement seems to be rapidly drawing in every false teacher in evangelical Christianity, particularly from the charismatic world. Like a multi-level marketing scheme, it is big business. And “better to join up sooner than later, while seniority is still being established.” There are so many tempting goodies to be had by affiliating yourself: networking opportunities, book endorsements, speaking engagements, travel, fame, and fortune.

So, will you hitch your wagon to the rising star of Antichrist? Will you join this seductive, self-affirming, mutual admiration society of power and wealth? Or, will you go to Christ, outside the camp (Hebrews 13:13)?

Business models and professional Christianity

What conditions in the Church have fostered the development of the NAR? I would offer, among other possibilities, the acceptance of outside control of local churches by, for example, denominational boards, missionary boards, and parachurch ministries; and the use of pragmatic (but unspiritual) short-cuts–that is, the use of worldly business growth principles–to achieve higher numbers of people and resources for the Kingdom.

“Nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.” 2 Thes. 3:8

Paul, a brilliant theologian, and a divinely appointed apostle, was also a self-supporting tentmaker (Acts 18:3). In this way, he had the advantage of not being in anyone’s pocket financially or doctrinally.

The Scriptures delineate the leadership of local autonomous churches as a plurality of elders, a collective leadership, raised up from within, with no single man in complete control. But in today’s churches, there is usually a “senior pastor” and “associate pastors” (often brought in from outside) who are generally professional clergy, as well as other hired staff.

The positions of “elder” and “deacon,” as effectuated in most churches today, are not in line with Scripture. They are born out of Protestant tradition, which is only slightly removed from that of Roman Catholicism, with the pastor as priest. In church meetings, the pastor is usually “running the show”; whereas in the Bible, we read things like,

“Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.” 1 Cor. 12:7

“Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop." 1 Cor. 14:29-30

Today’s larger churches often rely on worldly management techniques, marketing ploys, and business growth models, with the pastor often seen as a Chief Executive Officer (CEO).

This pragmatic business mind-set for church leadership and church growth has done inestimable harm, adulterating the spiritual with the secular. To name some names,

  • Certainly the influence of business management guru Peter Drucker is prominent in this church leadership business mindset. In fact Rick Warren, Bob Buford and Bill Hybels have been referred to as “the Druckerite ‘trinity’."

  • We see that this church-as-business thinking was promoted by the late Bob Buford, who was founder of the Leadership Network and mentor to senior pastor Rick Warren of the Saddleback Church, as well as to Emergent Church leaders like well-spoken mystic and social justice warrior, Brian McLaren. (And certainly, McLaren and Warren are no fans of the study of end-times prophecies.)

  • We see this commercial mind-set popularized in the annual “Global Leadership Summit” (GLS) events of the Global Leadership Network, developed by disgraced former senior pastor Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Church, which are still sponsored by that church. (Do you remember Jesus saying he would pick the most gifted public speakers and business minds to build his Church? Me neither! Paul neither. 1 Cor. 2:4-5!)

  • Regarding toxic church growth philosophies, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, and John Wimber were all influenced by the late Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral. Further, C. Peter Wagner identified Warren and Hybels as New Apostolic pastors in his 1999 book, Churchquake: how the new apostolic reformation is shaking up the church as we know it.

Will true peace come to the earth before Jesus returns? Like other dominionists, Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in California believes that the Church will establish the Kingdom of God here on earth, before Christ’s return. His P.E.A.C.E. plan is part of that initiative.

The eschatology of the NAR

In their eschatology, advocates of the New Apostolic Reformation generally reject futurism in favor of either,

  1. Preterism - the position that biblical prophecies concerning the “last days” were mainly fulfilled by 70 AD, when an angry Jesus, utilizing the Roman army, returned to kill the Christ-rejecting Jews in Jerusalem. (That’s right: the same, apparently bipolar, Jesus who had earlier said so tenderly, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem,…how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing”, Mt. 23:37, Lk. 13:34). And so in this viewpoint, there is no coming Antichrist, Rapture, or Tribulation on the horizon. Instead, in the words of singer Johnny Nash, “Look straight ahead, nothin’ but blue skies.”

Or, more acceptable to nonviolent-types within the movement,

  1. Open Theism” - the belief that God does not actually know the future (is not truly omniscient), and so He is “open” to working with us, in order to rewrite the violent end-times scenario He has forewarned about in prophecy—making it into something more victorious and glorious, by editing out all the negativity, with our help. And so, here again, there is no coming Antichrist, Rapture, or Tribulation on the horizon. (It should be noted here that in a similar fashion, New Age leader Barbara Marx Hubbard says that the New Age “Christ” has a plan, and he is promising that if everyone will just collaborate and co-create with the New Age Christ, world peace is possible, and Armageddon is avoidable.)

Nevertheless, there is a third category of NAR dominionists who do not reject futurism, and hold a distinctive version of the Post-Tribulation position—with their own violent spin:

  1. Post-Tribulationism - Mike Bickle, a dominionist from IHOP, teaches that the Church causes the Great Tribulation, and will kill people during it. Then, Christ will return after his Church has Christianized society. (Remember: Adolf Hitler was initially derided by some as an inconsequential buffoon. With that in mind, watch this video clip of Bickle shortly after the 4:30 minute mark, as he says, “I’m talking about the prayer of faith that heals; and I’m talking about the prayer of faith that kills!”

The NAR teaches that all Christians, by placing themselves under the direction of their “divinely” appointed apostles and prophets, must join together in unity to successfully incarnate Christ (“WE ARE Christ”), in order to take over the world in the name of Christ. These cooperative Christians, as specially appointed overcomers, are known variously as “Joel’s Army,” “Manifest Sons,” or “New Breed” Christians, and will supposedly usher in a beautiful theocracy.

Many in this movement believe the return of Christ is spiritual and invisible, not physical (–kind of like the Jehovah’s Witnesses believing that Jesus came back invisibly in 1914), and, as we recall from one of its antecedent streams, Promise Keepers, “Christ cannot incarnate in a divided body”; so, it’s necessary that the Church be united under dominionist leadership, and–as the New Age movement similarly suggests–come under an “overshadowing.”

But Christ’s return will be physical and public, not spiritual and invisible. We have been forewarned about this kind of confusion:

  • “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Mt. 24:26-27.

  • “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” 1 John 4:2-3. (KJV)

    Note: I used the KJV on 1 John 4:2-3, because “is come” in English better captures the intent of the perfect participle active used in the Greek—meaning the condition of ‘come’ is both being stressed and has ongoing effect—which can thus encompass past, present, and future.

    Jesus has chosen to permanently abide in the (now-glorified) physical body he received through Mary. We know that the lesser reality of the physical realm—purged of all death—will some day merge with, and be subsumed by, the the greater reality of the heavenly realm (Rev. 21:1-5). Jesus’ birth in a physical body was the initial intersection point in this process.

The NAR promotes a broad, triumphalist, social gospel, which rejects, as negative nonsense, any idea of a coming worldwide deception under the leadership of any made-up, bugaboo Antichrist. Ironically, to resist the NAR is to be labeled “Jezebel.”

The NAR’s message is sometimes mixed with militant and violent rhetoric by certain adherents (see, for example, the earlier video clip of Mike Bickle and the later clip of Peter Wagner). This violent rhetoric anticipates the eventual fulfillment of this warning of Christ:

“…In fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.” John 16:2b.

The dominion theology of the NAR takes the literal Old Testament promises of God given to the nation of Israel and forces them to apply to the Church. (From the perspective of futurism, this “Replacement Theology” is perceived as a step toward the enemy’s anti-Semitism.)

The eschatology of the New Age movement

In an eerily similar vein to the NAR, The New Age Movement speaks about a growing “Christ consciousness” throughout the earth which will impact society for good. “New Agers” think mankind is on the verge of an esoteric evolutionary leap to the “Omega Point” of human evolution, which will result in a super race of overcomers. They, also, are ecumenical, and believe that enlightened people need to unite in purpose with New Age leaders, and fully focus on working together in order to bring “Christ” to earth.

By way of the harmonic convergence of our innate human potential—our psychic power—New Agers believe “Christ” will finally appear, and we will enter a “new age” of worldwide peace and prosperity. Adherents talk about a type of conversion experience needed in order to see and enjoy our oneness and interconnectedness, a “paradigm shift” to “Christ consciousness.” (Again, “WE ARE Christ.”)

But, regarding the idea that “We are Christ” promoted in both the NAR and the New Age, consider this dire warning from Jesus:

Matthew 24:4-5 (NKJV)

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 For MANY will come in My name, saying, ‘I AM THE CHRIST’ and will deceive MANY.”

The Ecumenism of the NAR

Question: have you ever heard of national and international concerts and youth rallies led by either Australia’s “Hillsong Music,” or by “Jesus Culture Music” of Bethel Church in Redding, California? How about Lou Engle’s “Awaken” and “The Send” Events? These are actually NAR-sponsored activities, which have an agenda to draw in young adults and foster trans-local, trans-denominational unity under their “apostolic” leadership—a hierarchical pyramid structure of leadership reminiscent of the pope in Rome and his cardinals.

And, by the way, key evangelical leaders in the NAR, such as Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Kris Vallotton, Todd White, Mike Bickle, and Lou Engle, to name a few, are enamored with the idea of evangelicals reconciling with the Roman Catholic Church —with its salvation through sacraments. But that’s only in keeping with what the late Paul Crouch, president of TBN, had said on his “Praise the Lord” program back on October 17, 1989:

"I’m eradicating the word Protestant even out of my vocabulary…I’m not protesting anything… [it’s] time for Catholics and non-Catholics to come together as one in the Spirit and one in the Lord.”

Of course the Lord loves Catholics! Jesus died for them. But how many professing Catholics do you know who understand the born-again experience? Every Christian I know with a Catholic background, never felt led to return to the Catholic church after they got saved. Indeed, the Roman Catholic church, like the NAR, is something to be run from, not run to.

The false teachers of the Word-Faith movement

Speaking of Hinn and Copeland, false teachers of the Word-Faith movement are a big stream of the NAR. The enemy mixes his lies with just enough truth to still make things appealing to many Christians. So although these money-loving wolves with lavish lifestyles preach a self-centered health and wealth gospel, still and all, God’s will is for people to be healthy (Mt. 8:16-17, 1 Peter 2:24) and to prosper (Lk. 15:31, 16:9; 2 Cor. 8:9, 9:11):

Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers. 3 John 1:2.

Indeed, you can’t very well give others a hand up if you are flat on your back, sick, or with empty pockets.

Further, regarding “the power of the tongue,” an idea so misused and abused in Word-Faith that it is, for them, part of some self-hypnotic, psychic, Mind Science, Proverbs does indeed say, “The tongue has the power of life and death, and those who love it will eat its fruit” (Prov. 18:21).

James asserts that “Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect,” and yet also says, that “no human being can tame the tongue” (Js. 3:8)! So, we must humbly give our tongue over to the Holy Spirit, and learn to “pray in the Spirit on all occasions” (Eph. 6:18; cf. 1 Cor. 14:14-15). In this way we can facilitate our deliverance from evil, and begin to more consistently obey the injunction, “Bless and do not curse” (Rom. 12:14), as we should.

And regarding our spiritual authority, we are not just to petition God in prayer, but also to take action ourselves when we know the will of God. Jesus told the disciples to proclaim the kingdom, and commanded them, “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give” (Mt. 10:8).

We too are his disciples. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater, because of a bunch of greedy, manipulative “Word of Faith” psychics with weird hair.

(Note: we must first learn to successfully “freely receive” directly from God, in order to then have something blessed to “freely give” to our neighbor. First things first.)

Mysticism and false miracles

With respect to any alleged miracle, while I certainly believe in divine miracles, even nowadays (Jn. 14:12), I also believe in satanic miracles, even nowadays. For example, we recall the great power on display from Pharaoh’s magicians (Ex. 7-8), and from Simon the Sorcerer in Samaria (Acts 8). Further, we are specifically warned about the proliferation of demonic signs and wonders performed by false prophets, in association with the rise of the Antichrist (Mt. 24:24, Mk. 13:22, 2 Thes. 2:9).

Some people are looking for an ecstatic experience, more than for truth. Sensuality is a characteristic of both the NAR and Jezebel–the new Babylon. NAR-affiliated churches boast manifestations of gold dust, holy laughter, angelic encounters, and even the supposed manifest presence of God in glory clouds, brought down to earth through anointed (read “formulaic, agenda-driven, hypnotic”) worship. But “all that glitters is not gold,” and Paul warns, “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light” (2 Cor. 11:13-14).

For all of their talk about the importance of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in the NAR, ironically the gift of discerning of spirits (1 Cor. 12:10) is obviously lacking!

Alarmingly, the “primal energy” unleashed by Kundalini yoga practitioners inside the New Age movement (“In India, It’s Just Hinduism”), and the “anointing” activation released inside the NAR, bear a striking resemblance. Please be sure to watch this eye-opening thirty minute documentary to see the similarities for yourself. (You will need to forgive the bad opening music of the documentary, but it will be worth it!)

And unfortunately, adherents to both the NAR and the New Age Movement are very much into mysticism, and show wide-eyed acceptance of virtually all supernatural or psychic phenomena, and see them as desirable. Yet we have been forewarned by Jesus:

Matthew 7:22-23
MANY will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, DID WE NOT prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and IN YOUR NAME PERFORM MANY MIRACLES?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

It would seem that these rejected people in Matthew 7:22-23 (above) had embraced a counterfeit gospel of works, instead of the genuine gospel of grace.

Some of the people who “pray a prayer to invite Christ into their lives” do so without an attitude of unconditional surrender: I am not sure Christ always accepts that kind of invitation. For Jesus, that might be like a drunk person driving up to him in their car, and saying to him, “Hop in, Jesus, you’re welcome to ride with me!” But instead, they should be saying, “Jesus, I’m yours. This car is yours. You drive! I’ll ride in back, if you prefer.”

Legalism and the NAR

Speaking of misrepresentations of the gospel, there is a false gospel of salvation by works: but God is not legalistic, Satan is. And speaking of the bondage of legalism, who can forget an NAR forerunner called “Promise Keepers,” in the face of Christ’s explicit command,

“But I say to you, make no oath at all,…But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is from the evil one.” Mt. 5:34, 37.

There seem to be increasing claims of alleged divine revelations about “courts” and “courtrooms” in heaven; and the promotion of such revelations seems to be on the rise in apostolic dominionist circles nowadays. This new idea is that when we pray, we are stepping into a judicial system. So, when we pray, we need to get “binding contracts” in place, in order for God to be able to act. So, for example, we have to find the legal reason why someone is sick, in order to pray for them effectively. Bethel Church in Redding, California offers training in these misguided prayer “techniques.”

But what about, “It is finished” (Jn. 19:30)?! We are to focus on Jesus, and to freely receive by faith the benefits of his finished work; not on ourselves and what we must still supposedly do to win things from God—let alone, by way of using legalistic or mystical techniques.

Again, among evangelicals in the NAR, the trend is toward results-oriented, pragmatic, mystical, unbiblical, technique-driven prayer and worship. In an article titled “Prayer Gone Awry,” which critically examines these techniques, T.A. McMahon says,

Based upon the whole counsel of God’s Word concerning prayer, we can also make specific judgments as to whether or not a doctrine conforms to God’s way. For example, does it make prayer a technique or methodology? Does it require certain works, rituals, or game plans in order to be successful? If that’s the case, we have denied the critical personal-relationship aspect of prayer and rendered God a law-bound entity which must answer our prayers because we have followed certain rules or procedures.

Incredibly, what may be the fastest growing technique-driven prayer among evangelicals today is known as “strategic-level intercession.” According to its promoters it involves newer varieties of prayer such as “spiritual warfare,” “territorial spirits,” “prophetic acts,” “spiritual mapping,” “warfare prayer,” “tearing down strongholds,” “identificational repentance,” and “remitting the sins of nations.” Explanations of these prayer systems are found in advocate C. Peter Wagner’s book, Confronting the Powers, along with definitions of other methods, including “four ways of praying in the community”: praise marches, prayerwalks, prayer journeys, and more wide-ranging prayer expeditions. These, the author notes, “were virtually unknown to the majority of Christians before the 1990s…” Certainly, they were not known by God’s prophets and apostles!

With warfare operations names like “Operation Queen’s Palace” and “Operation Ice Castle,” deluded, wannabe Ghostbusters in the NAR think they can successfully dislodge territorial spirits through pounding anointed “prayer stakes” into the ground, and climbing to the tops of mountains to shout at the devil.

George Otis, Jr is now the go-to guy of the NAR for spiritual warfare techniques, particularly “spiritual mapping.” He is also a proponent of Moral Government Theology (MGT), which denies the doctrine of original sin, and carefully avoids any recognition of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, or the power of his blood. Further, MGT was widely taught to Loren Cunningham’s YWAM (Youth With A Mission) missionaries in years gone by; and MGT–like “Open theism,” which is the new emphasis in YWAM–promotes the idea that God does not know the future (is not omniscient).

The preferred blueprint for taking dominion over cities and nations is demonstrated in Otis’s Transformations movie series produced by his Sentinel Group.

The NAR and the New Age Movement: two sides of the same coin.

Both camps seek earthly political power. As for the NAR, there are both Christians and non-Christians who are skeptical of the NAR’s dominionist political agenda. And as to the political aspirations of New Agers, author Marianne Williamson, personal guru to Oprah Winfrey, threw her hat in the ring for the Democratic nomination in the 2020 presidential election.

Also, Barbara Marx Hubbard, a nominee for the vice-presidency of the United States on the Democratic ticket in 1984, is still promoting the well-known New Age goal of "Planetary Pentecost,” and the idea of co-creating a better future with God (equivalent to the idea among evangelicals of Open theism) in her latest book, The Evolutionary Testament of Co-Creation: The Promise Will Be Kept (2015).

Barbara Marx Hubbard promotes a ‘victorious eschatology,’ whereby the unity of enlightened people will bring about a peaceful Second Coming of “Christ.” An editorial review of her book at Amazon states in part:

"Barbara calls this collective transformation the Planetary Pentecost, a life-affirming alternative to Armageddon. ‘The promise will be kept’ is a call to action for humanity to awaken as a Planetary Social Body. It inspires each individual to awaken to his or her divine nature and fulfill the promise of performing even greater miracles than those once performed by Jesus.”

And clearly corresponding to the “Planetary Pentecost” promoted by the New Age, is the “Second Pentecost” promoted by those in the NAR, like pastor Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in Redding!

Syncretism

New Age mystical beliefs from the NAR continue to enter the charismatic world, and of course, New Age Hinduism has mainstreamed into the non-charismatic world as well. (Ever heard of Transcendental Meditation, or Yoga?)

A book entitled “The Physics of Heaven: exploring God’s mysteries of sound, light, energy, vibrations, and quantum physics” by Judy Franklin & Ellyn Davis (2012) is strongly promoted by Bethel Church in Redding, CA. In his contributed chapter, Dr. Jonathan Welton of the New Hope Community Church in North Chili, NY, reassures his Christian readers not to be afraid to reclaim purported tools from God, which were supposedly hijacked by the New Age movement:

“I have found throughout Scripture at least 75 examples of things that the New Age has counterfeited, such as having a spirit guide, trances, meditation, auras, power objects, clairvoyance, clairaudience, and more . These actually belong to the church, but they have been stolen and cleverly repackaged.” [Emphasis added, The Physics of Heaven, p. 49.]

The NAR and violence

The NAR is an iron fist inside a velvet glove, and one day that glove will come off. The recognition of God’s nonviolent nature, in contradistinction to Satan’s violent nature, is of paramount importance to be able to distinguish and resist the violent, anti-Semitic, totalitarian spirit of Antichrist in all of its initial subtleties and flatteries.

You cannot “play footsies” with this spirit and think to escape from it later without serious repentance. The spirit of Antichrist is like a giant magnet, and the lies of false religious doctrines everywhere are like iron: and they are now being called in. If someone is holding a piece of that iron, he will be pulled to the Antichrist, unless he chooses to let go, through repentance. Unfortunately, we may say of the well-meaning Christians being seduced into the NAR: ‘They are not holding fast to the head’ (Col. 2:18-19). They are being drawn into “Christian Imperialism.”

The late C. Peter Wagner, founder and “head apostle” of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), propagated a false equivalence between spiritual warfare and physical warfare, plainly illustrated in the following video clip:

Here, Wagner is teaching that physical warfare is appropriate and necessary to the dominionist agenda of world domination. He refers to physical warfare and killing, such as happened in Iraq and Vietnam, as being equivalent to spiritual warfare—apparently as one aspect of “Ground Level Spiritual Warfare,” in the same category with church deliverance ministries!

BUT regarding the use of killing to advance the kingdom of heaven: although we may have the highest regard for the police and the armed forces, we discerning Christians must affirm that, in our own case, WE are to ‘LOVE our enemies’ (Mt. 5:44); that "OUR struggle is NOT against flesh and blood” (Eph. 6:12); that “The weapons of OUR warfare are NOT carnal” (2 Cor. 10:4); and that “Jesus said, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. IF IT WERE, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders.’” John 18:36.

Another leader in the NAR movement who promotes militant rhetoric is Rick Joyner, of Morningstar Ministries in North Carolina. He has warned of a coming Civil War in the Church, which will be comparable to the American Civil War from 1861-1865 in which over 600,000 people died. But he says this new civil war will be between the Christians being led by “the Spirit” —who hence choose to submit to God’s anointed apostles and prophets (the Blues, akin to the “Yankees” of the Northern Union), and the rebellious, carnally minded Christians—who resist ‘getting with the program’ (the Grays, akin to the “Rebels” of the Southern Confederacy):

Like the American Civil War, the coming spiritual civil war will also be between the Blue and the Gray. In dreams and visions blue often represents heavenly mindedness- the sky is blue- and gray speaks of those who live by the power of their minds- the brain is often called gray matter- this will be a conflict between those who may be genuine Christians, but who live mostly according to their own natural minds and human wisdom, and those who follow the Holy Spirit. (“Civil War in the Church,” The Morning Star Prophetic Bulletin, May 1996, 2.)

In conclusion, the New Apostolic Reformation is being guided by the spirit of Antichrist, and must be exposed and confronted for the sake of the Christians who are being taken captive to it.

(This essay is also available as a pdf document: “The NAR, by Hermano, 18 Nov 2019.pdf”)

Kind of judgemental don’t you think Hermo man?

1 Like

Chad to Hermano.

Each denomination has different theological perspectives, on what “born again” means. See

Then go to the section on Denominational positions.

You will see the theological positions from Catholicism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Reformed, Methodism, Evangelicalism, and Jehovah’s Witnesses.

And the Eastern Orthodox, have their own perspective

The problem is that we think we have the “definitive answer”, on a theological position. When in reality, we might just be looking at things - through a particular theological lens.

1 Like

That’s an excellent summary, Randy.

1 Like

Very few as it’s not part of their agenda, they may equate “born again” with “water Baptism” but i’m not sure or to them “born again” may simply mean believing.

Far be it from me to judge/condemn anyone. But as a Christian, I do prayerfully seek to judge/discern, especially in this age of political correctness. As I said in an earlier comment above:

If a person is born again by receiving the Gift of Jesus (John 1:12-13), they have passed from death to life (John 5:24). If they are like me, they feel they were blind, but that now they see (John 9:25). My own experience was that after I explicitly, sincerely, unconditionally surrendered myself to God, and sought to invite and receive Jesus into my heart, I subsequently began to enjoy supernatural reassurance that Jesus had indeed come into me and taken up residence by his Holy Spirit. I also began to feel led to seek out other people who had had a similar, supernatural transition. Also, I now felt a strong to desire to study the Bible and to share my life-altering experience with others.

I live in a vastly Roman Catholic country, where people believe in salvation by works and sacraments, and in the unquestionable authority of tradition and Catholicism.

1 Like

The primary leader of the free world, Donald Trump, needs our prayers:

1 Timothy 2:1-2 (NIV)

Instructions on Worship

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—
2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

At a rally in Pennsylvania yesterday, President Trump called representative Adam Schiff (D-Calif) a “crooked bastard.” Although I oppose coarse language, I would still trust Trump over Schiff any day.

Personally, I am not overly distressed about the president’s bad language and sarcasm, but I am troubled about some of his Christian advisors, mentioned by Fox News today in “Pastors, worship leaders pray for Trump in Oval Office amid impeachment fight.” Several are ardent adherents of dominion theology, who think involvement in politics is the best way to bring in an ecumenical Christian theocracy.

For example, the article mentions Paula White-Cain, the chair of Trump’s evangelical advisory board. (She delivered the invocation at his inauguration, on January 20, 2017.) The article also quotes dominionist Sean Feucht of Bethel Church in Redding—who is now running for Congress in California. They are both associated with the “New Apostolic Reformation.”

Note: I have never heard the president promote dominionism, and I doubt he even perceives their global agenda: on the contrary, Trump seems adamantly anti-globalist! Nevertheless, Paula White-Cain and Sean Feucht are both also mentioned today in a rather concerning article titled, “Has the New Apostolic Reformation ‘hijacked’ the White House? (Updated).”

As a futurist, I believe in a prophesied apostasy among Christians (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)–which I think the New Apostolic Reformation exemplifies; a literal Antichrist; a global commercial center developing in Iraq; a literal rapture (or raptures); and a coming time of world tribulation which will begin after the first rapture. So I consider any ecumenical movement toward world unity under a theocracy—prior to the physical Second Coming of Christ—to be inspired by the spirit of antichrist.

Again, my main concerns today regarding unfolding Bible prophecy are ecumenism and materialism, not Islam. In contradiction to other futurists who have commented in this thread, I do not believe the Antichrist will be a fundamentalist Muslim, although he may arise from a Muslim nation. The prophet Daniel seems to indicate that this man will not have allegiance to any major world religion or god (e.g., “nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all”; “a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver”):

Daniel 11:31-38 (NIV)
31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered.
34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them.
35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

The King Who Exalts Himself

36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.
37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, BUT WILL EXALT HIMSELF above them all.
38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses [or, a god of forces]; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts.

Since I recognize a growing apostasy among genuine believers in the Church, I take particular comfort in verse 35: “Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end.” Our God will never give up on anyone.

2 Likes

WOW you should be concerned!! Not only excruciatingly embarrassing but down-right scary…

David, you do not have a dog in the hunt. So got to take it from the source, the current politicians are pandering to whoever and whatever… The position of Mr Trump will always have a stake in the very conservative base, so here in the USA there is a contingent that believes that a shake up is crucial, and a understanding of how corrupt the status quo is needed.

You’re right Chad, and sooo glad I don’t… the video however affirms Hermano’s concerns — all I can say is WOW!!