The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"the things done in the body"

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Now if there are unlimited opportunities to repent post-death, why is the earthly life SO important? If universalism were true, wouldn’t all existence be equal in importance withe regards to judgement?

It seems to fit either ET or CI which have final judgements.

I’m not sure I’m understanding you correctly, so please forgive me if I’m mistaken . . . are you saying that if unrepented sin should remain past physical death, the only possible judgment would be eternal conscious torment or annihilation?

Maybe you’re not aware that UR doesn’t exclude the judgment of God, whether favorable or non-favorable. Such judgment is remedial and aimed at reconciliation, but it is not non-existent and seems unlikely to be a slap on the wrist. The disease must be cured and that seems likely to me to be variably unpleasant depending on the seriousness of the sickness.

I’m just learning myself. There’s a lot more to this ancient and time-honored doctrine of the church than I had ever imagined. That said, I guess I always assumed that if one were to believe in UR, he would also believe that the sinner would be reconciled only after receiving the punishment due for things done (and not genuinely repented) while in the body. Those who did things worthy of few stripes; few stripes, and those who did things worthy of many stripes; many stripes. It seems to me that the true repentance would come from the heart of such a one only after the appropriate stripes had been administered.

I hope this helps :slight_smile:

Blessings, Cindy

i’ve wondered this myself a few times, Roofus, but the doctrine of grace, that allows for sin covered by Christ’s blood, seems to negate this judgement, which seems wrong.
so the idea that i’d been brought up with about all my sin being forgiven already, so i’d just go straight to Heaven, seems to contradict a few verses like this one. there was talk of a “rewards” judgement for Christians only, but that was i think a poor way to get this aspect of Scripture to agree with the once saved, always saved my Calvminian tradition raised me in.

this is my very poor take on this topic. i believe that the reason this life is important is not just for us to prove ourselves, but for us to grow up slightly away from God, given the choice to move closer to Him or further away. i think that this experience, once all is fulfilled, will drive us even closer to Him than if we’d simply grown up in Heaven.
I think God allowed sin to occur, and evil to pollute creation so that He could be the one to redeem it, and once His bride is cleansed of the muck, she will never doubt the love of her Husband ever again. she did once, in a sinless state, in the garden of Eden.

now i think that given what we know, relative to each of us, we need to do the right things with what we’re given, and we’ll be judged for that. but don’t forget that Paul says (i forget the reference) that we’ll be judged, and the works that are good will survive, and the works that were bad will not. and if all our works are bad, then we’ll suffer loss but we ourselves will be saved, but though as by fire

if you can think of it this way, if i am in heaven, where it’s EASY not to sin, and i do good, what reward is there for me? but if i on earth, where it’s hard to do right, do a good thing, then God will reward me. if i go against my conscience (as i have many times) or work in the strength of my flesh rather than in God’s strength (again many times), then my works will be rubbish and i will suffer loss for that. but His grace is sufficient; His word does not return void; He does not cast off forever; and where sin abounds, there grace abounds all the more. so i can be confident that flawed and wretched as i am in this life, the judgement will NOT be the end for me. i will be washed clean, and be the wiser for it, and the more grateful.

this to me is why this life on earth is so important.

but i will say that not all of us get a real life on earth. babies die, lives are cut short. to God then, this life is not always so important as that, as He will not neglect to save those lives too.

if i were to summarise, i’d say it’s because this life is school…Heaven is the Real World that follows. in school you aren’t given all the answers, but you’re tested and judged. eventually you graduate, and enter the Real World. note: this analogy does not allow for expelling as that’s a whole other aspect of the debate :slight_smile:

sorry, that was long and involved, but hopefully was more or less what you were after

One of the biggest misunderstandings surrounding universalism vs. exclusivism is the misunderstanding of the purpose of judgment. God’s judgment is the instrument through which we learn righteousness. “No discipline is pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace.” :sunglasses:

Roofus,

The Bible does emphasize the consequences of sin during our “earthly life.” Afterall, it’s all addressed to people who are in that phase of our existence! But why does it follow that our later existence won’t have any “importance” placed on it also? Why does it seem logical to you that it follows that such warnings about judgments concerning this phase must be “final”? In traditional literature, I constantly see this adjective applied to judgment, but I don’t see it employed that way in Scripture.

Bob,
But why is the judgement after the earthly life? Why not at the end of post mortem ages? Why at one point an not continually in response to specific evil actions?
bob

Hi there,
The way I tend to view it is God’s justice and His righteousness are the same thing.
His righteousness demands things to be restored to how they are meant to be. (his love will allow no less)
Judgement is that which occurs to define what is necessary for a person to be restored.
Following that line of thinking it would make no sense for it to occur after post-mortem ages as it’s during that time (and who knows how long that will be - but not a second longer than need be) that the required therapy is being applied.

At least that’s my take for what it’s worth.
I also wonder how the process pans out if we will ‘have seen Jesus as He is’ and will not be tempted by the devil and perhaps will be in an incorruptible state- but in need of maturing to understand where our sin has led us and others. Maybe this is an area others would see entirely differently.

Cheers S

interesting questions…
i think i do go through sorts of judgement during life. it’s not horrible, well some of the time anyway, but it’s God refining me…pruning me.
not sure that answers your questions but just throwing it out there

Just about all of the responses here show that my point hasn’t been communicated well enough to “get through”. I’ll keep tryin!

Roofus,

You ask why there is only judgment when we die, and there isn’t continuing judgment in our earthly life. But isn’t that very much what the Bible emphasizes about God’s wrath (e.g. Rom. 2), and a huge series of divine judgments during earthly history? Still, at the point you cite where we transition to a different post-mortem “age,” wouldn’t it also make sense to emphasize facing a crucial summing up judgment? This would be the point at which we are either ‘acquitted’ in light of our earthly journey, or yet have to face further sobering painful judgment that may well in this new chapter be pursuing our correction and restoration, as it regularly was in the past illustrations we have been shown of God’s punishing judgment.

Why set the judgment for deadline? Why is only the earthly said to be judged if sin and repentance continue?
I hope I’m not missing what you are saying , Bob

Roofus,
I think maybe that is what Paul is talking about in his Mars Hill discourse: “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed …”

That God has been patient with men’s ignorance, but a day is coming when God will put an end to unpunished evil. Repent now, before that day comes. I don’t think things will go on like they do now. I think that at that time, when judgment comes, as long as men have anything evil in them they will be continuously experiencing the wrath of God revealed against their sin – no more hiding in darkness, no getting off without consequences – only immersion in the burning of the revealing Light, destroying the darkness until there are no more shadows and the Light shines pure through all.

Everything will be seen clearly for what it is. Sin and repentance may continue for a time, but in a much more intense manner – not merely individual sins being acted out and then punished, but the very root – the heart-sin itself – being continuously punished by judgment – the revelation of it’s nature – until the man will amputate that part which he thinks belongs to himself (but is really a loathsome cancer) and casts it from himself in horror and repentance, washing his filth in the waters of life and receiving healing and nourishment from the Tree.

Sonia

Roof, I’m afraid I’m not sure I grasp your first question; did you you mean, why set thedeadline at death?

On the second, I was suggesting the judgment of our earthy life may be the emphasis, because that’s the only stage of life in which all the readers addressed were currently making choices. But still I hear you asking why didn’t the N.T. detail more about God’s dealings beyond death, if there were continued judgment and repentance. I’m thinking that the Bible seldom addressed things so far out of its’ more immediate context. E.g., before the resurrection, the O.T. is so absorbed with the present world that it hardly details even our existence after death. Perhaps the assumption that Jesus made with the Sadduccees that relationship with God continues beyond death suggests that we are left to assume that there will be some analogy between what we know of God’s dealings in the sphere already revealed to us, and the existence beyond that wherein we really aren’t told very much. I’m thinking that would make it reasonable that God would still care about purusing us, employing judgments, and seeking repentant response. And that could be consistent with indications of a universal victory and worship ultimately secured by God.