Ben, In juxtaposing my reading of Jesus, I’ve repeatedly agreed Moses sees God as directly killing people and bringing judgments. Your constant repetition of ideas we’ve already addressed seems to leave you unable to deal with next responses. I quoted your immediate response to my question, to emphasize that you do not say God ‘forces’ people, but “allows” them to do evils, yet still prefer to use language that God is “responsible.” You reply that you did not insist on saying that.
I saw this as a key term for our difference since you has repeatedly said, “Jesus taught God will kill the wicked people (AD70)” and “God kills on a mass scale.” I felt you’d used this term I address, in saying, " Who is responsible? the pawn or the One who moves the pawn to create his desired outcome?"
(I took your answer to be: God is responsible, since he supposedly moved the pawn who did the evil.)
I responded, that Biblically, it seems preferable with evil actions that violate Jesus’ commands to love one’s enemies, to say that the one with ‘responsibility’ for it is the evil doer. Linking ‘responsibility’ to the modifier, moral, I cited John’s statement that there is no darkness or evil in God. So I would not put it that God is the one ‘responsible’ or culpable for such perversities, and I’d join Jesus in resisting them.
You didn’t quote my immediate response, you quoted, your chosen version of a response I never gave.
You can sugar coat it as much as you want Bob. You could have confirmed that by responding to my post directly under your Comment, were I said God doesn’t force people. Yet you took other parts Of my response, and made it look like I “agreed “ with God “forcing” people, by highlighting the “yes”, at the start of my post you butchered , as if I was saying “yes” God does force persons to do evil. So it allowed your hasty “thank you comment” For me rejecting the term “Force”…How can I reject an understanding I have never had ?? Your just playing word games Bob, like you have been doing all along yet in doing so you fall into your own trap. [ie] :—
Bobs words :—
How does the chess player use the evils
of the people without using the pawn, which in a game of chess would equate to moving a pawn, which doesn’t fit YOUR given position, or your a analogy. So I asked you who is responsible the pawn or the one who moves the pawn. I also stated why bother using the analogy, If YOUR chess player doesn’t move pawns. My next tongue and cheek reply was to further point out, your nonsensical analogy that doesn’t fit your given position. it’s funny you say that God the greater chess player uses
those evils,Yet you pick me up on saying God used those wicked people. My point was you can’t use the evils without using the people, this doesn’t amount to forcing anybody. Why do you say God Uses those evils when you insist on God not using evils but allowing evils. You fall into your own trap Bob,. As you rightly say, it’s a semantic quibble. Since I agreed it amounted to a semantic quibble, I carried on using the wording :— “used “slashed with “allow.” as meaning the same thing [ie]
God used the rain for judgment or God allows the rain for judgment.
You just contradicted yourself Bob, you tie yourself up with your own arguments.
So for clarification’s sake, how does God use peoples evils to bring about check mate, without using the people who commit those evils ???
Ben: On your first argument, while I myself don’t think of chess as involving “moving” the others’ pawns, I can only repeat, your own interpretation of chess becomes irrelevant to settling a Bible question.
On (2), I did not even distinguish ‘using’ people’s evils from using the people. E.g. I may ‘use’ my child’s pernicious act (that her freedom ‘allows’) to bring good, e.g. by showing her what it reaps, and you can say I made use of her evil, or of her as a person, but that’s irrelevant to my central response to you that implies in such a case that I am not "responsible" for her evils (which seems unbiblical).
To rephrase: On Jesus’ warnings of AD70, we agree God can “use” evil human choices that he “allows,” in accomplishing God’s ultimate purposes. For you, the language follows that God is “responsible” for those events. I think it better to say (moral) “responsibility” for evil choices lies entirely with the evil chooser, and that it’s not necessary to say that God need bear “responsibility” for Rome’s choices.
Let’s put things this way. Suppose a Voodoo doctor from Hati, creates a zombie from Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). Then this zombie is watching a Walking Dead show and sees the zombies eating people. He then develops an addiction to brain food. Then he goes out and kills people and eats their brains. Who is at fault?
The Voodoo Doctor from Haiti, who created the zombie?
The Walking Dead TV show, that gave the zombie the idea - to eat brains?
Or the zombie, following their zombie nature?
On allowing evil, here are some Got Questions’ perspectives.
If folks can present a case, in a forum thread - using chess…Well, I guess I can try the same thing - with zombies. Now someone might ask:
(1John 1:5 ESV) This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
We would never say this of any person who kills people. However, I believe the apostle John was correct.There is no darkness at all in God. Therefore God does not kill people.
(1 John 4:16 ESV) … God is love…
It is not that “love” is but one of many characteristics of God. Rather “love” is God’s very essence!
A person whose very essence is love, will not kill people.
(Romans 13:10 ESV) Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Killing someone is doing him wrong. God’s very essence is love and love does no wrong.Therefore God does not kill people.
(1Co 13:4 ESV) Love is patient and kind…
God is love and love is patient and kind. Therefore God is patient and kind. Such a person does not kill people.
We would never say of any human killer that
In him is no darkness at all
“Love” is his very essence, and
He is patient and kind
Oh yes. You can point out many OT passages that state that God killed people.
I disbelieve them. I believe what Jesus and His apostles said about the character of God.
I agree God can use our own freely chosen evils to bring us to checkmate. I’ve re- read that part of the post and admit I took the chess player analogy down a different rabbit hole, I thought you was comparing God using peoples evils to bring about check mate in the sense God used Rome’s evils to bring about check mate were the Christ rejecting Jews were concerned, hence me saying how can God use the evils and not the people who commit those evils. I apologise for that, and for saying you contradict yourself in that part of your post.
Let me start this post without using Moses who You say spoke falsely in Gods name, lets see what the bible insists, not what you
claim I Insist !!
Joshua 8:7
7 Then you shall rise from the ambush and seize the city, for the Lord your God will deliver it into your hand. 8 And it will be, when you have taken the city, that you shall set the city on fire. According to the commandment of the Lord you shall do. See, I have commanded you.”
Joshua 8:21-23.
21 Now when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city and that the smoke of the city ascended, they turned back and struck down the men of Ai. 22 Then the others came out of the city against them; so they were caught in the midst of Israel, some on this side and some on that side. And they struck them down, so that they let none of them remain or escape. 23 But the king of Ai they took alive, and brought him to Joshua.
Matt 21:40 -42
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
Matt 22: 1 -2 + 4 -7
And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son
4 Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them.7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies destroyed thosemurderers, and burned up their city
Christ continued the o/t theme of his Father and Gods judgments, within his parabolic language.
*Gen 7:4
4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.
Matt 24: 37-39 + 50. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away,so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Christ taught that he was coming back in his father and Gods judgments. As in the days of Noah so shall it be, when the son of man comes. [ie] :—-
God :—
“I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.”
Christ :—-
“will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Christ believed in his Gods o/t judgments
Is Christ a false prophet along with Moses,
because he teaches a re-enactment of his
Gods o/t judgments.? Peter wouldn’t have agreed with you, he understands clearly
What Christ was teaching :—
2 peter 3:6-7
6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
1 Peter4:18. “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
1 Peter 3:20. who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water… [ whilst all the others perished]
Looks like Christ taught his fathers judgments, and peter taught Christ’s Coming judgments, all centred around the principle of the great flood, in which their father and God used/allowed the floods to destroy known man kind.
In fact they all agreed with Christ coming back to carry out his father and Gods judgments :——
“what will he do to those vinedressers?” They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably,
2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat *both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
Paul :—-
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9. emphasized text7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Why did the author of Hebrews freely write that Gods judgments were even more sore than that of Torah Law for those who abandon the faith. Did he to Not understand Gods judgments.?
Heb 10:28-31
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If the book of jude was indeed written by Christ’s brother, did he have a hard time Understanding Gods judgments of the
o/t :—
Jude 1:5-7
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Gen 19:13
For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it.
You accuse Moses of being wrong about Gods wrathful character that can result in death. If you truly believed Christ’s words, you would accept his fathers judgments. So the way i see it, on the very grounds you judge Moses why don’t you judge Christ, his brother the author of Hebrews and his Apostles who taught or acknowledged Gods wrathful character that can result in death. God doesn’t need persons to shift the responsibility’s off his actions on to others like Adam did with eve !! especially when it comes to undermining Gods chosen prophets and Apostle’s. I have no problem If you feel comfortable with calling Gods prophets false, or disregarding the validity of certain passages or even books of the bible. If that’s what you feel comfortable doing that’s fine, “I don’t,” instead I seek to try and make sense of both sides of Gods character. I see your way as nothing but cherry picking so that God fits in with your own perceptions of him.
Although I do not deny Gods judgments, I believe they run alongside his greater plan for [all] mankind, I rather choose to try and look at the end Goal of what I believe to be his bigger plan.[ie] the restitution of all things [including all people] through Christ. I reason that God doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked and that forms of violent judgment were never part of Gods original plan for mankind. I believe a major part of Christ’s coming was to reveal his fathers deepest desires for mankind and how he longs for us to live. And that revelation will only come to fruition when mankind has a change of heart and learns to love in the way Christ taught. The restitution of all things has to begin somewhere.[ie] in and through Christ. If it has a beginning it will have an end [ie] when Christ puts all rule and authority under his feet and then hands back the kingdom. Then Gods righteous judgments will be put to an end.
In the mean time, Yes man is responsible for the evil he does and the judgment that will be met out to him. And yes God is responsible for the judgments he puts in place. I don’t suppose it will take to long before I see one of you using Moses writings to back up a God given point
you want to make, and I’m sure you will cherry pick verses to use, when you deem Moses wasn’t t acting as a false prophet !!
Thanks, I not sure you’ve engaged my view of how God works in history and who is culpable for evil choices. But it appears you think it’s not a ghastly enough view of what we should expect to yet see.
That’s fine. So, emphasizing the second coming will be like a literal universal flood that destroyed all mankind, can you describe what sort of event of universal fire and literal divine destruction you perceive it’s vital for us to expect will come upon all mankind and even threatens “His people”?
I’m not sure how they would answer this. But my view is very simple. I’ll continue to advocate Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9), as the most probable - end-times tribulation theory (whether the cause is the devil, science run AMOK, or both).
These posts in that order would give you a bearing of were I am coming from. It may be a different take than your used to, but it’s just how I see it. I don’t profess to have it all right but the below is the general jist how I see things playing out. t’s not a mass of reading and I’m not saying your interested, but it would at least give you a clearer picture of my views.
No, thanks, I’m uninterested in personal prophecy theories, and have no vested interests in such eschatology’s. But since a second coming analogous to unilaterally slaughtering every person by the flood was so pivotal for you, I was hoping for a paragraph amplifying how you see that happening.
I truly believe Christ’s words that God is kind to ungrateful people and to evil people as recorded by Luke. Do you?
If God is kind to evil people, He’s not going to kill them.
(Luke 6:35) But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
I understand your view. But Your view obviously doesn’t match the bibles view, and it’s the biblical view I am interested in. Therefore engaging your view becomes increasingly difficult, because its just that “your view” . I’ve already stated man is responsible for his own actions and I’ve also shown biblically How God is responsible for his own judgments. I’ve asked you before, and I’ll kindly ask again, do you, deny God used an angelic agent to kill, do you deny God Rained down fire on sodom using angelic agency’s, also do you deny God himself flooded the known world ? If you don’t deny these biblical accounts, you are forced to believe God is responsible for his judgments and the out come of those judgments, However if you do deny them as direct acts of God, we are then arguing Bobs view and not what the bible presents us with. Me personally, I can only go with whats written. I’ve highlighted that in each account God was the authority behind those judgments, Now why don’t
you show me, where in the bible it teaches God wasn’t responsible for these three acts ? If you can’t do that Bob, and seeing we are debating bible, then those biblical accounts stand, and your given understanding is found wanting. You insist Christ’s teachings only, I’ve shown you where Christ refers back to His Gods known judgment in the flood as a parallel to his future coming judgments. So stop arguing your view and show me biblically where it says God was Not responsible for the flood and it’s outcome.?
That’s fine, I understand. But I’m pretty sure you won’t be interested in My personal shortened down version either.
Yes I do, Im just not willing to disregard
the rest of Christ’s teachings that go with
it, as shown above. And I’m not comfortable amounting Gods chosen prophets to being false prophets, and I wouldn’t be comfortable Cutting huge
chunks out of the bibles writings either, to try and bolster my view. Yes i agree God is kind to both ungrateful, and the evil. Doesn’t the gangster enjoy the Same God given privileges of this world along with the honest working man ?
Footnote: Since we are talking about Bible verses, and the Rapture was mentioned. There are many views regarding this subject, by the various church groups - according to this Wiki article.
That’s fine. I wasn’t interested in your personal theories in that my focus was on what the BIBLE teaches about who is “responsible” for men’s evil choices, especially as regards Rome’s treachery in AD70. On N.T. texts, you seemed to end up with asserting the Parousia reflects God’s violent solutions, puzzling texts whose fulfillment has been much debated on the forum (especially on preterist views that they’ve already been fulfilled) Since you’d argued Jesus’ future presence will be universally deadly like the flood, I was just curious for a sketch of what you expect.
Since the beginning of this thread , my argument has been whether God judges by
way of killing. and whether Moses is a false prophet for saying / doing so.’I used AD 70, as an example of Christ upholding his fathers coming judgments, an example you seem to have parked your bus on. Regardless as to wether AD 70 was the coming Parousia or not .In Christ’s own words, he refers back and parallels his second coming to that of the flood his God used to judge the known world. These are biblical examples, you have yet to refute Bob. I’m not interested in your personal view either. So I’ll post again what you seem to be ignoring :—
If you was that curious, you would have
had a nose at My given subjects.
