The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Thoughts On Hitler

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1

I posted this as a comment on The Reliability Of The Bible Put To The Test page, thought you might like to read it:

Going by the logic of eternal conscious torment in most circles, many of those, not having received Christ in this life, who died so unjustly in the death camps would be in everlasting hell along with Hitler… and how would that be just? That should give one pause for thought.

And Hitler is always the guy who comes up in these discussions.

Hitler, as horrible as he was, was still a human being made in God’s image. He was much abused as a child, and he was addicted to drugs, was in fact a guinea pig of experimental drugs through most of WW2, which degraded his mind even further during that time… these things by no means excused him for his actions, but I believe that God takes all things into consideration in judgment…

I’ve also heard that Hitler, when found dead, was clutching a photo of his mother, or it was found nearby… sentimental perhaps, but to me such a thing show that he was, beneath all of the monsters inside of him, still a human being, who desperately needed love and needed healing and help…

There are more sick and depraved individuals that I could imagine other than Hitler… it was only that he was in a position to cause much harm… not all sick and depraved individuals find themselves in such positions of power and influence…

Which brings the question… how are any of us any better?
Could it possible if things were a little different in our own lives, if we were wired just a bit different, if we had a little more power or influence, that we ourselves would do no better?
Do we have any more right to forgiveness and grace than a Hitler?

How are we, in looking down our noses at all of the serial killers and child molesters and dictators and criminals of the world, really any better than the Pharisee in the temple who thanked God that he wasn’t as bad as the tax collector?

And if God chooses to have mercy even on those who are most wicked and evil in our eyes, will we grow angry and upset, much like the workers who showed up early got angry and upset that those who showed up late got paid the same?
Can’t a man do what he wants with his own money?

And if God chooses to embrace even the most detestable of sinners, will we be like the elder brother who complained about how his father threw a party for his lost son, the younger brother?
Can’t a father forgive and be gracious to (even extravagantly), his very own children if he wants to?

And even if there is no such place as hell, no torture chamber along the lines of Dante’s Inferno, if such a thing has only ever been something that exists in dark and morbid imagination, that does not mean there will be no judgment or consequences for wrong done…
but whoever said that judgment had to be mere vengeance, without any other purpose besides?

Whoever said that mercy could not follow judgment, that it could not triumph over judgment, as it has many times before?

Could it that the best way to destroy evil is not to everlastingly punish or abandon or annihilate those enslaved to the evil within them, but rather to destroy the evil within them itself, making the evil good?

Isn’t the best way to defeat our enemies, as Abraham Lincoln said, to make them our friends?

Which do you honestly think would give the victims of the Holocaust greater joy?
Seeing Hitler burn forever and ever, or perhaps destroyed, or rather seeing him changed, full of remorse because of his actions, and ultimately, a different kind of person, a Christlike kind of person?
Would it give them more joy to condemn him forever in their eternal bitterness, or rather to embrace him with godly forgiveness and grace as a brother?

Such a thing sounds scandalous I know, but so too was Jesus when He walked among and shared meals with and forgave and healed sinners and tax collectors, people that the ‘decent folk’ looked down on, and thought themselves better than.

So it is not surprising that some even now would find such a thing as Hitler being reconciled to God as a scandalous thing, as I’m sure some Christians felt when they’d heard of Saul’s conversion.

But I think if God can turn a Saul into a Paul, He can just as easily turn a Hitler into a man after God’s own heart…

And such a thing would not be surprising, at least to me, with a God who is compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in love, and with whom all things are possible…

Blessings to you all, and grace and peace to you :slight_smile:

  • Matt
#2

Hi Matt. I’ve thought along these very lines myself, many times. I’ve often said that the only difference between me and Hitler is that I’m not Hitler. I know the suffering I’ve cause others within my tiny sphere if influence. If I had power, a past and maybe a little mental illness, who knows? God forbid I think any good I’ve done or any wrong I’ve not is anything but grace. “Who makes thou differ from another and what hast thou, thou hasn’t received.” And, “There but by the grace of God go I.” Hitler was depraved but I’m not aware of it being anything other than the human depravity that exists IN US ALL. In Hitler, it just found an opportunity to grow and manifest with reckless abandon. Chilling.

#3

Yeah, it’s certainly something to think about… thanks for the comment, Sass :slight_smile:

#4

Awesome post, Matt! Well said and succinct, and beautifully thought out. If it isn’t well received, that could only be because people haven’t read it thoughtfully or possibly because there’s just too much invested in ect to consider God might choose to pay the last guy as much as the first. :slight_smile:

Great job!

#5

Thanks Cindy, I appreciate that :slight_smile: Actually, it went over pretty well :slight_smile: The ROTBPTTT page, though it gets heated sometimes, is not as bad as the TULIP Debate page was, and has more of an eclectic assortment of people, and has more tender and open-minded people then not, so it was appreciated by quite a few, especially one sweet lady named Kathie Grace, who (currently :wink:) believes in annihilation though is sympathetic to belief in UR, who was moved and encouraged by what I said.
So that was, well, encouraging. :slight_smile:

Thanks again, and blessings :slight_smile:

#6

Yes, I think this is one of the areas where those in favour of ECT fall short of the gospel – not that there isn’t a hell – but only people who are ‘obviously’ ‘evil’ (and unprofessed Christians) go there. Exactly. What harm we could do were we in situations we don’t know about - and haven’t experienced, we just don’t know. It is so dangerous to point at others as bad, so dangerous, and there’s lots of scripture, as you rightly point out Matt, too back that up. The thing about sin that is so pernicious is it rarely feels like sin! We can see other people’s sin clearly, but our own? Our shadows are behind us and we can’t see them. The only way to be really safe is not to judge.

But I think more and more that hell is not a place so much as a state. Sin is its own punishment. It is really a condition – not a deed or action so much as a way of being – and as has been so well said on here – one we can be saved from. But with out being ‘saved’ from it, it is, as Julian of Norwich said, inevitable. The priest at the beginning of Les Miserables spoke of sin as like gravity – just inevitable. I think the big mistake we all make is thinking of large, obvious sins as being more destructive than small, private, possibly socially acceptable ‘sins’ which we all know can be more harmful, simply because they’re never addressed. The woman who manipulates her children in subtle, indirect ways – destroying confidence and trust – the main who doesn’t beat his wife, just uses silence or body language, to make her feel constantly rejected – and then that spills over in how she treats her kids or her neighbours or her co workers or employees or, well, you get the drift. We know from history that so much evil has been perpetrated by, as Auden put it, “decent, common folk” and so much of it by professing Christians, that that alone should make us super cautious about who is good and who isn’t and who deserves punishment and who doesn’t. As Sass put it – many of us know we just haven’t had the (thank God!) opportunity or motivation to be as cruel as is possible. I think one writer put it well, “nothing human is alien to me” – the good and the bad. We are all, as Kubler Ross put it, potential Hitlers – or worse! We are also potential Francis of Assissi’s – and that is, I believe, the destiny, through Christ, we all are labouring towards.

Thanks Matt for pointing out the underlying pride inherent in ECT.

#7

Great post Matt.

I know some people here might not like this, but I think the day will come when we will be glorifying God with Satan. Every knee will bow. Surely that includes Satan.

#8
#9

The subject of Adolph Hitler seems to be a favorite among Christians whenever the subject of deserved punishment comes up. Hitler gets a bad rap. Think about it: any and every human being has only a certain, finite capacity for evil. The popular perspective of him as the most evil human in history is emotional and unreasonable. He didn’t have any more hatred than a lot of other men, he just happened to be surrounded by a social organization and existed in circumstances ripe for a man of his electric personality to come to power and infect a society with his bigotry. Thousands of devout associates joined with him in genocide, Hitler coudn’t have performed it alone. The blame for the holocaust and Germany’s destuction is no doubt properly spread over many thousands of participants who sold their souls to an evil ideal. Hitler needs to be given a break. Was he bad? Sure. Was he satan, king of evil? Of cousrse not. Is he forgiven? I have no doubt the Lord’s mercy is greater than Adolph’s sin.

#10

neither do I but does that mean you allow him free rein ?

#11

For the record, the wording in red in last post were not my words.

Of course no one is “allowed free reign”, if you’re referencing punishment. I didn’t suggest that in my post. The point is, it’s unreasonable and overly emotional to try to place the primary responsibility on Hitler for the holocaust. He had lots and lots of help.

#12

Buzz is right. I just saw pictures a few weeks ago of a group of Auschwitz guards on holiday. Laughing, drinking, playing with their kids, posing for pictures. Aside from the Nazi uniforms, there was no indication that this was anything other than a family lounging around at their summer home in the mountains.

I was amazed at how happy they looked, how carefree, how normal. Yet, days or maybe even only hours before they were sending shorn, naked mothers and their children into the gas chambers.

I thought of the human ability to rationalize and compartmentalize. All we need is to think that what we are doing is for a “greater good” and we will do ANYTHING. And we are capable of anything. Only call evil, good.

And THAT was all Hitler had to do.

#13

and I don’t in any way disagree with you ! :slight_smile:

#14

Thanks for all the comments guys (and gals) :slight_smile: I’d kind of forgotten about writing this… glad I wrote it though…
I’m pretty good at rambling, if I do say so myself :laughing:

Blessings to you :slight_smile:

Matt