The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Titus 1:2.

The KJV has “before the world began,” and Rotherham has “before age-during times,” but what does this verse mean?

The KJV would almost seem to imply the pre-existence of the soul (how could God promise anything before the foundation of the world if God was the only one there?), and the others seem to imply a very long time before the NT was written.

But where did God first promise eternal life to man?

The OT doesn’t seem to say much about it until Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel.

Where was it promised "“long ages ago”?

The only passage that comes to my mind is in Genesis 3, where God promises that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpant (but that seems a little vague.)

Any thoughts?

John 17.3 defines eternal life in this way:
“And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Based on that, I’d say that eternal life originates in the intimate relationship Adam and Eve had with God before the fall.

So because God removes Adam and Eve from the garden so that they don’t eat of the tree of life and live forever (as sinners) are we saying that living forever and eternal life are 2 completely different things?

In short, yes. Eternal life speaks of source (connection to God) and quality (dynamic and vibrant). Live forever speaks of time, either unending or indefinitely long. I’ve heard many testimonies of people who have died and come back to life, and while dead they experienced the full reality of either the present kingdom of light (Heaven) or the present kingdom of darkness (Hell), or both; and many of them share of the “eternal” nature of those realities, that there is no sense of “time” only of “being”. It’s a different reality, a different dimension. Understanding such is like a man born blind understanding the color green, or a baby in the womb trying to understand the light, darkness, shadows, and sounds outside the womb. We just can’t quite get our hands around it.

I believe aionios is best understood in the light of the Hebrew context of the word olam, which means basicly, beyond site and implies beyond understanding. It’s a visual term that means on or over the horizon. That which is on the horizon is almost indistinguishable and that which is over t he horizon is beyond site and understanding. The quality of life, the connection to God that IS “eternal life” is far greater than we can understand. In like manner, aionian judgment, chastizement, punishment is far greater, more intense, more devastating than we can understand. I trust that it is ultimately for our good because of the love of our Father for us, but it is none the less something to be feared and to live one’s life in the light of. And if we are wise, we’ll embrace our Father and allow Him to go ahead and embrace judgment and allow Him to change us.

Oh, and concerning the testimonies of those who died and came back to life, it’s amazing that whether they experienced the full reality of the kingdom of light or the full reality of the kingdom of darkness, the result was salvation for them and many of their hearers. hmm, interestin.

Jeff, I’m still thinking it through. I haven’t looked up all the references yet, but I think it would be fruitful to follow this theme through the scriptures. So we have eternal life before the fall then, starting with the exodus I think, we have God setting apart a chosen people, so he can live among them and that they can show the world what he is like. I’m not sure how often this comes up but I reckon it runs through the OT. When we get to Jeremiah’s prophecies about the New Covenant it becomes clearer in verses like:
"I will be their God and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbour , or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,’ declares the LORD."
Jeremiah 31.33-34
In the NT we have eternal life especially in John’s gospel - but really right through the NT with all the kingdom of God/Heaven references and the work of the indwelling Spirit in Acts and the epistles. Finally at the end of Revelation we have God living among his people in the New Jerusalem. Interesting?
I think it is better and more accurate to think of eternal life as life with God/the life of the coming age, rather than thinking about infinite lengths of time and so on. The eternal/everlasting confusion is of course a big factor in our universalist discussions on other threads.

I’m very much in agreement with you revdrew. The life that is connected with God seems always to result in quality rather than quantity. In fact, the whole wanting to live forever concept would seem the ultimate selfish act as opposed to wanting the life of God which by being completely self-sacrificing just happens as a by-product to probably involve somehow living forever.

Whatever eternal life is, my question was when (and to whom) God first promised it?

Adam Clarke’s Commentary on this verse has this.

“We have often seen that the phrase, the foundation of the world, means the Jewish economy, and, before the foundation of the world, the times antecedent to the giving of the law…as Mr. Locke observes on Romans 16:25. The true literal translation is before the secular times, referring us to the Jewish jubilees, by which times were computed among the Hebrews, as among the Gentiles they were computed by generations of men.”

My question is, where did God promise eternal life to anyone “before the Jewish economy”?

To whom did He promise it?

To Adam?

To Eve?

Enoch?

Noah?

Is there a passage where this promise is recorded?

Could this be a reference to the cryptic promise in Gen. 3:15 (or is there some other passage I’m overlooking)?

My hunch, Michael, is that God promised it to Adam and Eve and that Paul is interpreting the promise of a seed who would crush the Serpent’s head, etc., in terms of Christ undoing the effects of sin and bringing humankind to its telos.

But if one really wanted to posit a divine promise of eternal life prior to creation, I’d say God promised it to Godself in the sense that God covenants with Godself to stick with the project until it’s finish. Positing pre-exist souls doesn’t help at all, unless you make them conscious and mature communicators who can understand the promise made.

Tom

Thank you Tom.

I was just reading the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, and they have this:

studylight.org/com/jfb/view. … 002#Tit1_2

Maybe that’s the answer (kinda like “The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”?)

Hi Michael,

I agree with Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown. I see 2Ti 1:9 teaching about an eternal purpose.

Henry Alford says much the same thing as Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown.

It might also be helpful to note that the same expression “before lasting times” (before all ages) occurs in 2 Tim. 1:9.

… who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago. RSV

Did God give grace in Christ before all ages? Thankfully this verse mentions God’s “purpose”. Was it not God’s purpose before all ages to give us this grace? Is it not in reference to God’s purpose that Paul says “God gave us grace before all ages”?

I take it to mean that our spirits, which originated in Christ, were given grace ahead of time to allow for things to turn out the way that they have and for Him to end up moving in our lives now. Back when we were not much more than thoughts in the mind of God, if anything more.

Paidion,

Thanks for that 2Tm 1.9. I love the thought of “grace given us in Christ before the world began.” It requires us (I think) to see the incarnation as essential to God’s purposes for creation.

Splendid humbling thought,
Tom

I’ve heard of Alford (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown quote him ocassionally), and have a great deal of respect for him (I even sometimes get the impression that he was a universalist.)

You say he said “much the same thing as Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown,” but what exactly did he say?

Alford wrote in one of his notes beneath the Greek text in his Alford’s Greek Testament:

“…promised from eternal ages (the very distinct use of προ χρονων αιωνων in 2 Tim. i.9, where the meaning ‘from ancient times’ is precluded, should have kept Commentators from endeavouring to fix that sense on the words here. The solution to the difficulty, that no promise was actually made till the race of man existed, must be found by regarding, as in 2 Tim .1.c., the construction as a mixed one, — compounded of the actual promise made in time, and the divine purpose from which that promise sprung, fixed in eternity. Thus, as there God is said to have given us grace in Christ from eternal ages, meaning that the gift took place as the result of a divine purpose fixed from eternity, so here He is said to have produced eternal life from eternal ages, meaning that the promise took place as the result of a purpose fixed from eternity. So Thdrt. ταθτα γαρ ανςτηεν μεν και προ αιωνιων εδεδοκτο τω των ολων θεω. δηλα δε πεποιηκεν, οτε εδοκιμασε.”

(Sorry, I cannot place hard or soft breathing above initial vowels of Greek, nor can I produce the iota subscript.)

Thank you.

Paidion’s report is a good one (and I have a little more regard now for J,F,B’s notion of it being a “contracted expression”, although I think they’re applying the wrong terminology in calling it that.)

However, I can solve much of the problem even without regard to 2 Tim by noting that in the Greek the word isn’t “promised” but PROMISES in the middle voice form. While that can plausibly mean past tense, and past tense could also be included in the scope, it also can be the verb form for divine ongoing action (top down at a right angle to all of natural history, so to speak): God is promising. (Middle voice form doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with timing one way or the other, which makes it ideal for speaking of divine timeless action. But it can mean past action, too, even for God.)

{pro}, meanwhile, not only means “before” in the sense of physical time and space, it also can have the meaning of “before” in the sense of importance. (I was hoping before I looked it up that the term was actually {pros}, which would involve God promising life eonian to the times eonian, seeing as that would hugely solve a lot of problems–and would count as weight toward universalism, too. :mrgreen: But I can’t in honesty do that, it’s {pro}.)

The gist then would be the same as if Paul had written that God promises life eonian from above the highest heaven. And once more this could be ratified if {aionion} should mean ‘from God’ and not merely a never-ending sequentiality, as not only "zoe eonian but also “chronon eonian” both in their own ways imply. The life is from God and the times are from God, and the promise is from the God Who gives the life and gives the times.

The comparison with 2 Tim, however, is certainly helpful and instructive, too, as there are parallels beyond the use of the same prepositional phrase:

2 Tim 1:9-11 God saves and calls us not in accord with our acts “but in accord with His own purpose and the grace that is given [act verb form] to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian, yet now is being manifested through the coming of our Savior, Christ Jesus, Who indeed abolishes death yet illuminates life and incorruption through the evangel into which I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher of the nations.”

Titus 1:1-3 “[from] Paul a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ in accord with the faith of God’s chosen (ones) and [in accord with] a realization of the truth, which accords with devoutness, on the expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises [middle voice form] before times eonian, yet manifests His word in its own eras in heralding, with which I was entrusted, according to the injunction of God, our Savior; to Titus etc.”

The verb form of “given” in 2Tim is that of an ongoing (sometimes also thus an incomplete) action, still going on at the present time; the verb form of “promises” in Titus 1 could be a divine timeless (by use of the middle voice form). The grammatic structure of the 2Tim reference is definitely such that past times in chronology are not being referenced but rather action from above at all times; and the grammar for Titus 1 could easily be meant that way as well. Note also that in 2 Tim the topic of that being given from times eonian is grace which is topically explicit to be by the divine choice and not due to any action of ours, thus also not due to any action of ours in time.

Strengthening the idea that the same notion is meant in both verses, is that the basic notional structure is identical across both claims being made by Paul. In 2 Tim, the action of grace is given from a position superior to time, yet is manifested in time by the coming of Christ Jesus, Who yet acts in a timeless fashion within time (so to speak), in comparison to the appointment of Paul in past time to join in the heralding of the gospel. In Titus, the action of the promise of eonian life is promised from a position superior to time, yet God manifests His Word (a title for Christ) in its own eras (of time) for heralding, in comparison to the appointment of Paul in past time to join in the heralding of the gospel.

If the position superior to time in 2 Tim involves a timeless ongoing action still going on today (or anyway at the time of Paul’s composition of the epistle), which the verbal grammar and the context definitely involve; and if the position superior to time in Titus 1 could grammatically involve a timeless action-state of some sort, in a sentence with otherwise strong compositional similarities to a sentence where the relative time issues are definitely not about a promise being given merely in times long past; then we have strong exegetic reason to believe that in Titus 1 Paul meant the same timeless action relationship.

That being said, there isn’t any direct exegetical reason to disallow the notion of God making a promise to someone about life eonian for us “before” natural time either. Neither is there anything in the verse to positively indicate who God would be making the promise to. (It could be to Christ, but that would be based on reading this in from other scriptures, not on exegesis of the verse directly.)

Thank you Jason.

I don’t understand why you think the middle voice form (in this case middle deponent) would indicate ongoing action. The verb is aorist in tense which describes an undefined action normally occuring in the past. If Paul had wanted to indicate ongoing action, why would he not have used the imperfect tense?

I’m sure you must have meant “passive verb form”.

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