Hi Folks,
I’m sure I’ve come across various comments in anti-hell books about how hellism leads to all kinds of bad consequences, like traumatising people and legitimsing religious violence (kill the heretics before they destroy people’s souls!), but I’m short on evidence.
Any help?
I run across this often while studying European and Mediterranean history, but it’s so depressing I’ve never bothered to take notes of primary sources. 
I expect Augustine would be one primary source worth looking into however. 
What I can say is that during the Dark Ages (between the fall of Rome and around 1066, i.e. up to the point where Christian Catholic nations started fighting one another), there were only two main times when evangelization involved military force, which is an impressive record overall considering the risks and temptations involved. Things tended to pick up later in the High Middle Ages as large groups of heretics gathered, including the Reformation fighting (whether Protestants fighting Protestants, or Catholics fighting Protestants and vice versa).
Hi Pog 
The burning of heretics and of witches – the two categories often being interchangeable - was sometimes justified in terms of its deterrent value (the English Law on the Burning of Heretics states the deterrent value). Burning was also the punishment for other crimes against nature like patricide, matricide, infanticide. In addition believe it was the punishment for counterfeiters of the King’s coinage – especially for female counterfeiters.
Sometimes in terms of its redemptive value (the Spanish Inquisition actually prayed for the salvation of those burnt– burning the body to save the soul)
But often in early modern Europe it was seen as a ritual of purification from the contagion of heresy which might potentially lead to damnation of the faithful; it was booth ritual scape-goating and pastoral concern with menaces. Also it was sometimes seen as a way of giving the victims a foretaste of their fate in the world to come.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) i know a lot about this one – and the knowledge has shaped my faith in many ways.
All the best
Dick
Hi Pog
Boyd Purcell’s book Spiritual Terrorism, which is cited on your list thread, is an in depth analysis of the damaging psychological effects of fear-based religion. It’s well worth reading.
And purely anecdotally, couldn’t pretty much all of the doings of the Inquisition be classified as the brutal consequences of hellism?
Cheers
Johnny
Hi Johnny -
Actually the inquisition were mild compared to what happened in Northern Europe - but I’d agree.
Well I’d say something positive here – proto Universalists and Universalists have never had a taste for burning people (for obvious reasons).
Very early, Erasmus who I’d classify as ‘proto’ argued against the persecution of heretics using the parable of the Wheat and Tares as his proof text – and later other tolerationists followed him.
Castellio who was strongly influenced by Erasmus, strongly criticised Calvin for the burning of Michael Servetus telling him to forget stuff about eliminating heresy – to kill a man is to kill a man; simple as that. (I’ve actually seen a symposium of Calvinists chaired by John Piper on YouTube in which one member justifies Calvin’s burning of Servetus on pastoral grounds! 
Calvin also wrote to Edward vi the boy King of England advising him to burn Anabaptists and show no mercy)
Rodger Williams of Rhode Island in his ‘Bloody Tenant’ argues that the wrath of God rested on the persecutors and not on the heretics. He was no Universalist but was hugely influenced by the Seeker sect as was his Universalist colleague Harry Vane. ’The Bloody Tenant’ was burned in England by the public hangman on the orders of the Calvinist Parliament (it’s a good job Rodger Williams had emigrated).
William Penn – certainly a wide hoper, possibly a hopeful Universalists – dismissed a charge of witch craft against a confused old woman in Pennsylvania. She admitted to ‘flying on a broom stick. He replied that there was nothing in the constitution that forbade this.
The one possible Universalist I can think of who gave evidence at a witch trial was Sir Thomas Browne. He did not play a big part in the trial – he simply appeared as an expert witness. However, his form of Platonism – which made him see a great chain of being stretching from the demonic to the angelic – persuaded him of the truth of witchcraft. It’s a shame – a stain on the name of an otherwise wonderful man.
Other religious minorities played a big part in the ending of heresy hunting – the Pietists in Germany (who often had Universalist sympathies), and the Arian annihilationists in England – notably John Locke.
All the best
Dick
Final one here. I came across a quotation this week while doing some research for your list thread Pog . It’s by Robert Ingersoll - he was an American agnostic and intellectual entertainer, the Richard Dawkins of his day, It runs -
“Strange! That no one has ever been persecuted by the church for believing God bad, while hundreds of millions have been destroyed for thinking him good. The orthodox church never will forgive the Universalist for saying “God is love.” It has always been considered as one of the very highest evidences of true and undefiled religion to insist that all men, women and children deserve eternal damnation. It has always been heresy, to say, “God will at last save all”.
Well he was making a point in a polemical way. I started to think - ‘but is this true?’ Hmmm - well the hundreds of millions is a total exaggeration, But have there been lots of universalist martyrs? Thousands of Anabaptists were drowned, burnt or otherwise slaughtered during the Reformation. One of the charges levelled at them was that they believed in final salvation of all including the devil. There were Anabaptist universalists - but contemporary research suggest they were in a minority. The blanket accusation of universalism was rather used as a way to implicate them in diabolism (these people want the devil in the heavenly city and likewise they introduce chaos and disorder into the earthly city!).
Universalists have been imprisoned for their beliefs - for example Richard Coppin in the English Civil War. However - apart from when it has been associated with Anabaptism universal was often treated less severely than denial of belief in the trinity for example. The most severe case of persecution I know of was of a universalist who had his tongue bored through by the Massachusetts Calvinists’ in the seventeenth century. But there have been universalists martyrs - quite a number actually - who died in the cause of religious freedom and human solidarity against tyranny.
P.S. I know I sound sound hellist phobic with a touch of the Calvinist (five pointer) hellist phobia here. What I’d say is that in a free society where there is some sort of separation of Church and state and pluralistic freedoms are guarded, it is possible to be a believer in strong ECT and still a tolerant person. However, when belief in ECT actually becomes an organising factor in society, then the persecutions and the burnings return. So we must be clear on this one.
P.P.S. Addition -
The following is taken from the Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature , Volume 10, 1895, Rev. John McClintock and James Strong.
‘’In July, 1684, Joseph Gatchell, of Marblehead, Mass., was brought before the Suffolk County Court for discoursing “that all men should be saved,” and, being convicted, was sentenced “to the pillory and to have his tongue drawn forth and-pierced with a hot iron.”
Speaking of the damaging psychological effects of fear based religion, I found something interesting about what happened to a couple that was in Mark Driscoll’s church back in the early 2000’s on a link from the Theoblogy site. The beginning snippet is from an article entitled Mark Driscoll’s House of Cards. There is a link at the end of this to the full story from the horse’s mouth on another site. I think the full deal is about 12 pages long, but it’s a very interesting insight into what goes on behind the scenes at Mars Hill Church under Driscoll’s leadership, and well worth the read.
patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/ … -of-cards/
and the rest: joyfulexiles.com/ under “My story” by Jonna Petry. (Second article)
You’ve got two different types of answers here Pog - to the two different parts of your question. Just one last thought - to pick up on what Jason said about Augustine. When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire some Christians set about persecuting pagans periodically.
Regarding Christians persecuting heretical Christians – Augustine did give legitimation to the persecution of the Donatist speaking of ‘the benignant asperity of persecution’ (lovely ring to it that phrase 
) – but he only recommended imprisonment and fines – and he persecuted them for being too severe! It was the slippery slope, but I think even Augustine would have been shocked by what happened later. I understand Ambrose – Augustine’s mentor – was appalled by the burning of some Prisicillian heretics (the first instance of this terrible phenomena in Christian history).
I think that earlier than Augustine, the gloating hatred against and dehumanisation of ‘heretics’ found in the writings of Tertullian prepared the ground for terrible things to come - and he was Mr Strong ECT; the unmerciful Doctor par excellence.
Great (?) stuff folks, thanks for the info. It’s a sad legacy …