The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Trees of the Garden

Theology Philosophical
#1

In the What is Truth thread, there’s been some small mention of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I’m interested to know what you all think/believe the trees represent.

For myself, I think the Tree of Life is Christ. Of course God knew we wouldn’t, but theoretically, Adam could have taken of the TOL and started right there on his journey to become a mature son of the House of YHWH. What might have been is immaterial, though, and as I said, I believe God knew it wasn’t going down that way. But He was very keen on preventing Adam from eating the good fruit after he’d eaten the forbidden fruit. When I believed in annihilation, I figured maybe this would mean that, since he couldn’t die, he WOULD have suffered forever. Now I’m not sure exactly what the danger would have been – not that I need to know, but it would be interesting.

When we live by the life of Christ and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit within us, we are eating from the Tree of Life. When we live by our own understanding of what is good and what is evil, we are eating from that other tree with the really long name. :frowning: People call it the tree of knowledge for short, but I think that makes the name deceptive. Knowledge isn’t a problem, IMO. It’s when we depend on our own flawed perceptions of good and evil that we get into trouble. I’ve also heard it postulated that this tree (hereinafter known as “the bad tree” or BT) contained the nature of the devil. I don’t find this in scripture and am a little doubtful as to whether this is in fact the case.

Another interesting thought I’ve heard is that when we eat from the TOL, that’s following Jesus as our guide and leader and shepherd and elder brother and bridegroom, etc. When we eat from the Bad Tree (BT), we are depending on our own finite knowledge and understanding. Everyone WANTS to do what is right, or maybe more accurately, we want what we are doing to BE right. Using the BT, we can work this out. (It’s okay if I really love her, and in Jesus’ day, poor people got married by simply moving in together, so how much worse is it if I . . .) But using the TOL, that doesn’t work. (Maybe so, but the Holy Spirit is telling me not to do this.)

There is no life in the BT. It is deceptive food that leads only to death. But it is our nature to want to be independent even though it limits us. When we eat from the TOL (Christ), we have access to ALL knowledge, or at least all that we need at the moment, but we have it through God and not on our own. We may even have to access this knowledge partly through our brothers and sisters, and that hurts our individualistic pride even more than if we always get the truth directly and only from God.

Well, I could go on for quite a while :open_mouth: but I will be merciful and stop talking now. :wink: I’d love to hear what you all think about this.

#2

Sorry I’m off to bed but saw no one had commented on this post yet, so at least wanted to let you know that I’ve been thinking about it, but just haven’t come up with anything worth posting :unamused:

The best I could do was nerdy…
site:www.evangelicaluniversalist.com “tree of life” brought up 779 threads in Google but
site:www.evangelicaluniversalist.com “tree of knowledge” only brought up 205 threads :ugeek:

#3

Yes, a small mention of an large event (which according to Christian theology) is responsible for all evil which happens on planet earth. BUT - they leave out that it’s responsible for all the good which happens also. :bulb: hmmmm…

My advice - don’t read too much into it. Simply put - it is a metaphor describing what we experience in this life: Blessing and calamity; Good days and bad days; birth and death; light and darkness etc etc etc (ALL the polar opposites).

In the eternal realm beyond all this there is no darkness or shadow of turning. Turning/movement/motion/shadow only happens within time/space. Moving into the temporal realm is (metaphorically) leaving the perfection of God’s changeless domain and experiencing (ie: having experiential knowledge of) non-perfection, flaw, failure/calamity as OPPOSED to all the good stuff we experience.

But - to maintain religious dogma it is said that the “good” part of the good and evil tree is really an evil kind of good, self good etc etc. :unamused:

Bottom line - we are here to experience exactly what we are experiencing. The garden story is an obvious set up for things to unfold exactly as they are unfolding.

The traditional scenario which has God placing the tree OTKOGAE in the garden and then hoping and praying that his innocent creations would obey and be spared all this is childish. Which is cute and all but - time to grow up.

#4

Thanks for the comments, guys! I did try a search, but after looking through all the results I got (which were for some reason fewer than yours), I couldn’t find much beyond incidental mentions. Also, I didn’t find any advanced search function by which I could search for an exact phrase. :frowning: , so ended up with a lot of non-relevant results.

Also, thanks for popping my post up where folks may see it. :wink: I figured it was going to be stillborn, because of having posted it early in the day. That would be all right, of course, if there isn’t any interest, but I do think there’s quite a lot in this beautiful metaphor (and I don’t discount that it could also be more or less literally true, either, though I realize that isn’t popular). The mythic qualities and symbolism do trump the historicity if it exists, though, and that’s what I’m interested in discussing.

I hadn’t considered that the “BT” symbolizes the good and evil that we experience every day in this world. Good point. Nevertheless, I think there must be more to it than that. I do think there is a sense in which what we perceive to be “good” can be a “bad good” in that it is of the flesh (or the natural realm) rather than a good which flows from being constantly led by the Spirit of God. (All these who are being led by the Spirit of God; these and none but these are the children of God. Ro 8)

In the same chapter, we are to put to death the deeds of the flesh (or body or natural realm?), not just the overtly bad deeds, but all the deeds. The Pharisees, who were capable of parsing the law to the point that they made it of no effect, were also careful to do “good” deeds according to their own understanding of good deeds. (The human knowledge of good and evil?)

No doubt God knew Adam would eat of the BT rather than (or in addition to?) the TOL, and no doubt God knew this was necessary in order to create/birth the kind of mature sons and daughters He intended to have. Nevertheless, there was that chance. I wonder whether it isn’t necessary to have that option available (to do right) even if you know it won’t be taken. Otherwise, the choice to do the wrong thing (if that’s the only thing available) probably doesn’t mean an awful lot.

#5

I read an article by a Jewish Rabbi who has an interesting take on the Garden and the trees. His suggestion is that before what we call the Fall, Adam and Eve did have a sense of ‘right and wrong’, but that before they ate of the tree, it would have been more like true vs. false rather than good vs. evil or right vs. wrong. So then, eating of the tree brought subjectivity into play, rather than having God’s objectivity. It moved the control of desire (a good thing) from the spirit to the soul, which was a much too small steering wheel to control the powerful engine of desire.

Just some food for thought.

#6

That IS interesting, Melch. I’ve thought a lot about the difference between the spirit and the soul. People say the soul = mind + will + emotions, and I also think that there’s at least some ground for soul = natural life (which may equate to more or less the same thing as the first). It works for me (presently anyhow) to equate the heart, of which Jesus gives us a new model, with the human spirit.

Using this picture, the heart/spirit should be at the helm of the ship (the ship being the soul, which animates and is expressed by the body/flesh). So in this sense, it looks to me like the BT could symbolize, in part, our decision to let the soul lead rather than the spirit (which in its alive state is under the direction of the indwelling HS).

(servant/servant girl = soul, king/queen = spirit)

Thanks for a thought-provoking answer. :slight_smile:

#7

Yeah, I thought it was interesting too. I think I posted the link to the original article in one of my posts, but I can’t remember now under which topic.
I’ve heard the whole soul = mind, will and emotions thing repeatedly from various and sundry teachers, but I think it’s too Western/ compartmentalized. The Hebrews are much more wholistic in the way they view things than we Westerners are. The Hebrew word translated “soul” is nephesh, which would seem to indicate the whole man; somewhat separate, but not entirely, from the life giving spirit or breath breathed in by God. So, under that understanding, it would be: soul = mind, will, emotions and physical body. I think it is an imported pagan Greek idea that our physical body is just a shell in which we live.

#8

Hi Cindy
I don’t have much time at the moment but I can’t ignore this thread. I think that the account of the ‘BT’ in Genesis is one of the most amazing, intriguing, mysterious and profound parts of the Bible second only to the cross of Christ.
God IS the moral arbiter and knew that we would pay a heavy price if/when we reached the stage of ‘eating the fruit’ of moral perspective.
From then on, humankind has usurped God’s position as judge and yet humanity realises that it is not in a perfect position to judge!
God must have wept for this deadly predicament humanity found itself in -we now know the standard of moral perfection and yet we cannot attain it -no wonder we clothed ourselves with the fig-leaves of ‘good works’. And yet God also knows that it is for our ultimate good/development. The weight of guilt is as toxic a poison as any thus far discovered. Thank God that He had the universal antidote! He discards our fig-leaves and lovingly clothes us with the skin of the lamb which was sacrificed ‘from the foundation of the world’. The gospel of calvary was never a ‘plan B’. Thank God that the Love of Christ is very evident right from the start.
Its late and I’m rambling but I want to thank you for starting this thread.
God bless

#9

Well put.

#10

Thanks Melch. I’ve edited it in the hope that I might be a little more coherent. And now I’m off to the land of Nod.
God bless.

#11

Scripture actually supports this position.

Isaiah 45:19 I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right.

This is completely against what is ‘good’ and what is ‘evil’ because the Lord speaks the Truth, He alone declares what is right without regard to what is considered ‘good’ and 'evil.

#12

First of all it wasn’t a “bad tree”. It was just a tree they were told not to eat of and in the Hebraic mind this lets the creator off the hook for the world’s mess. Yet the Gods responded “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil”. So in this: “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God(s), knowing good and evil” the serpent was correct, no?

#13

Which messes many people up :wink:

#14

Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

1 Co 15:46 However, the spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and then the spiritual.

TOKOGAE is the flesh/natural

Tree of Life is Spirit

By eating the fruit of the TOKOGAE which is good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom
we are going after the senses, whereas the Tree of Life is Spirit, and cannot be grasped through the natural thought

The first man Adam is linked to the TOKOGAE, the last man Christ is linked to the TOL

We have to return to the garden/the holy of holies to find the TOL, the way through is through the veil which is the flesh the veil is covered in cherubs, also the cherubs stood outside the garden, the cherubim represents our flesh, we need to press in by following the firstborn of many brethren through the new and living way by picking up our cross and dying/tearing the flesh/cherubim

#15

I love your illustrations, RHM. Can’t help thinking that the veil of the temple also represents the tearing of Jesus’ physical body, and that we come into the Holy of Holies through His flesh even as we are torn asunder from our own flesh (natural person), as you so eloquently put it.

Wow! Is He magnificent or what? :smiley:

#16

Yes the veil was torn, as also the hymen in the virgin was torn when she birthed Jesus who is the head, the head is of course what births first, and when it first shows its called crowning

#17

It may be helpful to consider the possible meanings they had BEFORE the Christian theological spin was placed upon them.

#18

In order for there to have been a tree that gave knowledge of good and evil, there had to be good and evil existing. Adam and Eve were “naked but unashamed,” iow, they were fully human, just how God made them…they had fellowship with God and yet were not judged (“found wanting”). They had no shame of being spiritually naked. But once they ate of the tree, “their eyes were opened…and they were ashamed.” The TOKOG&E gave them an awareness of “good and evil.” Just like the Law, according to Paul. Paul stated “at one time, I was alive…then the commandment came ‘you shall not covet’ and I coveted and then I died.” This was the purpose of “the law” (knowledge of good and evil) - to make sin manifest (or as one commentator said it “to increase transgression”).

The Law gave power to sin, which was the sting of death. That Law has one of two effects - 1) makes us feel crappy about ourselves, or 2) makes us feel superior to others. In Jesus day, the former effect was in evidence among the people Jesus hung out with; and the latter with those who wanted to (and succeeded at) crucifying him. This is the problem with religion/Law/good and evil/judgment - it exalts those who should be humbled and separates the sinner from the Forgiver.

We hear from the religious elites that God cannot be in the presence of sin - but that’s not scriptural. Adam and Eve “sinned” and God showed up. It was they who hid from God, not the other way around. Cain killed Abel and God showed up, offering mercy. The worst “sinners” in Jesus’ day were the people he ate and drank with - prostitutes, tax collectors, thieves, etc. Even the disabled were considered sinners because the disability was their “punishment” according to the religious. But what did Jesus say of the religious? They were “whitewashed tombs,” “vipers,” “sons of…the devil,” “sons of the evil one.” John called them “antichrists.” Paul said they were “uncircumcised” and wished that “they’d cut it all off.” Religion, with its emphasis on judgment and Law, brings only death. Spiritual death, the kind experienced by Adam and Eve and every “sinner” since.

One last thought, why did God not want them to eat from the tree? He knew they would “become like us” with knowledge of good and evil. He then kicked them out of the garden to keep them from the TOL. Why? “They might eat and live forever…” What’s so wrong with that? Well, at that time they would have died in their shame. That shame had to be done away with by Jesus so that “blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on, for they shall rest from their labors.” The way to the Tree of Life had to deal with elimination of the shame first. Once humanity was once again “naked and unashamed” then we can eat freely from “the tree of life” and live forever. That’s for us NOW.

good news.

#19

Very interesting comment. When I’m with the church and someone says something I don’t fully understand, it’s okay because someone else will surely say something that will open up the discussion and help me to understand. So usually I just don’t say anything and wait for someone else to chime in . . . . :wink:

Waiting . . . .