I am currently a Full Preterist and Purgatorial Universalist. I have been exploring new ideas in regards to UR and other beliefs. I have only stumbled upon your particular brand of universalism now because this is a minority group on the forum. Please give me well-informed, scholarly arguments for your position because, who knows? I might just change my mind 
Sorry, Zoe. But that strikes me as humorous. You see, theologians and philosophers have constructed âwell-informed, scholarly argumentsâ for everything under the sun. Take the position of arguments for the existence of God. There have been âwell-informed, scholarly argumentsâ for the existence of God. But there have been âwell-informed, scholarly argumentsâ against the existence of God as well.
There are many ways universalists can disagree among themselves:
A wide range of ways of understanding the Bible, such as Biblical inerrancy, Biblical infallibility, Biblical criticism and higher criticism, also various views of the Biblical canon and apocryphal texts.
Whether God's oneness is best described by the orthodox Christian concept of Trinity or in some other way, such as classical unitarianism, Socinianism, modalism, etc.
Whether Jesus Christ will literally return at some future time to consummate his reign on Earth (futurism and millennialism), or only returns metaphorically in the present or future, or whether these prophecies were fulfilled in ancient times and we now live during the Messianic Age (preterism).
The specific nature of the afterlife (literal versus metaphoric heaven and hell, purgatory, reincarnation, other ideas).
Whether the shed blood of Christ on the cross is a literal atonement for the sins of the world or whether this is metaphorical, and what the atonement accomplished â Anselm of Canterbury's satisfaction (Roman Catholic view), John Calvin's penal substitution (Reformed and common evangelical view), Hugo Grotius' moral government (classical Arminian and Methodist view), Gustaf Aulen's Christus Victor (Eastern Orthodox view, commonly held by Anabaptists), or Peter Abelard's moral influence (modernist-liberal theological view), etc.
Whether non-Christians can be saved in Christ (inclusivism), whether salvation in Christ is even necessary for all people (pluralism), or whether salvation occurs only after profession of belief in the Lordship of Jesus Christ (exclusivism).
Whether Christian Universalists should attend denominational churches in the hope of converting them, or should start their own new churches, or should leave the organized church entirely.
Etc.
One of the great minds in Church history was Thomas Aquinas. But when he had a mystical experience, he said this:
On the feast of St. Nicholas [in 1273, Aquinas] was celebrating Mass when he received a revelation that so affected him that he wrote and dictated no more, leaving his great work the Summa Theologiae unfinished. To Brother Reginaldâs (his secretary and friend) expostulations he replied,
When later asked by Reginald to return to writing, Aquinas said,
Iâll let others provide the arguments. Iâll leave you with this Zen story:
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitorâs cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself.
Nan-in said,
Or perhaps this Sufi Saying?
My succinct proof:
LIve! Have you noticed that all things are made new? That there is a creative and restorative force acting always and everywhere?
So if this is the meta characteristic of the physical world, why would the spiritual world operate differently?
Why would a God who restores all things also systematically and eternally destroy some things?
If we see God for who He is, is it possible to make a succinct argument against universalism?
Trey, are you trying to prove ULTRA-Universalism? Are you an ULTRA-Universalist?
Actually, I have previously encountered only one Ultra-Universalist who used to post to this forumâand he doesnât seem to post anymore.
I am an ultra-universalist. In other words, I believe that all the punishment we receive is on this side of death. I do not think there are any punishments awaiting us after death.
I do not think there is any one biblical passage that explicitly teaches ultra-universalism. Rather, I think ultra-universalism is deducible from the lack of any passage that clearly teaches post-mortem punishments. Every biblical passage involving punishments seems to me to be talking about this life rather than the afterlife.
Well, whatever else âultra-universalismâ is said to entail I certainly can go along with this aspect of it.
Paidion:
I am displaying my ignorance of terminology. I was attempting to prove ultra-universalism rather than Ultra-universalism, being wholly unfamiliar with that as a formal term. To me ultra-universalism means Hitler and Osama Bin Laden will, among many others including me and you, commune with our Creator.
And I donât say this out of any particular appreciation for murdering scoundrels, but out of an awestruck appreciation for Jesus and His redemptive power in all of us.
As regards, Ultra-universalism, as defined in the post by Geoffrey, I have a perpendicular take. I don 't think we receive any punishment from God whatsoever on either side of death. I think we receive challenging circumstances on both sides of death that ultimately lead us closer to God, even though we may take many steps backward before proceeding anew forward.
I donât think we can rightly imagine the after death challenges. And the after death challenges may be imagined to be punishment by many, but God is One and has one end, to bring all unto Himself.
Okay, there are more ultra-universalists than I thought who post to this forum, that is, universalists who believe there is no corrective punishment of anyone after death, that all will be forgiven because of Jesusâ death on their behalf. To me this suggests that Hitler will live throughout eternity hating Jewish people (just one example of trillions of similar examples). No remediation after death would be no justice at all and evil would be perpetrated throughout endless ages.
It is âgiven to men once to die and after that the judgment.â If thereâs no remediation, what is the purpose of the judgment? Just to administer rewards? Or are there no post-mortem rewards either?
To me this suggests that Hitler will live throughout eternity hating Jewish people (just one example of trillions of similar examples). No remediation after death would be no justice at all and evil would be perpetrated throughout endless ages.
It is âgiven to men once to die and after that the judgment.â If thereâs no remediation, what is the purpose of the judgment? Just to administer rewards? Or are there no post-mortem rewards either?
I agree that Justice probably would require some element of punishment but on the other hand we were forgiven while we were yet sinners therefore God could simply forgive.
In other words if God simply waits out evil people to change their hearts , are they actually capable of change? If God changes them then why the emphasis on us making choices in this life.
Maybe making choices in this life clarifies what must be changed in the next life.
St. Paul the Martyr and Apostle was the chief of sinners. There was no worse sinner than he. We have his own word for it, and I take it seriously. When the risen Christ appeared to this worst of all sinners, he immediately became the holy Apostle Paul: âLord, what do You want me to do?â In other words, the worst of all sinners encountered the risen Christ, and [snaps fingers] instantly was transformed into the Apostle.
That, I think, is an illustration of what happens to each of us upon bodily death. We encounter the risen Christ, and [snap!] we are transformed into the likeness of Christ. The Uncreated Energies radiating out of Christ deify us. Itâs like weâre a black and ugly coal thrown into the midst of the hottest furnace. The flames of the furnace immediately suffuse the coal, turning it into a beautiful, glowing stone. Thatâs us when we die.
Thus, when Hitler died on April 30, 1945, he immediately encountered God the Son, and Hitler immediately shared in Christâs holiness. Hitler, glory be to God, is now as holy as God Himself. All of Hitlerâs sinfulness is past tense and destroyed. He is in perfect harmony with God.
What about free will? We barely have free will here on earth. We are all so enmeshed in our sinful passions that our God-given free will is little more than a doubtful glimmer. But when we encounter the risen Christ, He sets us free from our passions. All the barnacles and junk attached to our souls are blasted out of existence, and we stand pure and utterly free for the first time in our lives. Our free will is set free. Itâs like we are deranged, insane lunatics, and Christ comes and puts us in our right mind. Think of the bestial, naked fellow in the Gospels who was possessed of demons, and Christ set him free. That is similar to us. We think we are so smart and so lucid, when in reality we are crazy. (Iâd go so far as to say that we are as insane as Hitler was, but that he was unlucky enough to have the firepower to really put his sinfulness into effect. We are merely a bunch of ineffective Hitlers.)
I simply cannot imagine sin, error, or weakness of any sort to be able to exist in the unveiled glory of the risen Christ our God. His pure holiness is omnipotence itself, annihilating out of existence anything not in harmony with His will. When we die, we are weak, wretched sinners. Then we see the Great Physician, and we are made instantly wellânot in spite of our free will, but because of it. I think it would be incoherent to imagine freedom doing anything other than worshiping Him Who is Freedom itself.
Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit! 
If Christ immediately transforms everyone into his likeness at the snap of His finger when we encounter Him, then what is the purpose of becoming His disciple NOW?
This is not what I read in the teachings of Jesus and of His apostles. Paul wrote:
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:9-11 ESV)
Paul expressly states that those who practice wrongdoing will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of the Corinthians WERE sinners but they repented, and were rendered righteous (a frequent meaning of the word sometimes translated as âjustifiedâ). Paul warns them not to be deceived, by those who might teach them that they CAN inherit the Kingdom even though they continue to practise such things. I think his warning belongs to our day too. So I, too, refuse to be deceived by those who tell me Iâll get off scott free with no consequences for my wrong doing (I can get away with the phrase âscott freeâ since I am of Scottish origin).
Paul made it painfully clear in the following passage that God will provide unpleasant consequences for those who persist in wrongdoing:
**Do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that Godâs kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when Godâs righteous judgment will be revealed. For He will render to everyone according to his works.
To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek, for God shows no partiality. (Rom 2:4-10)**
Thank you very much for your response, Paidion. I sincerely feel honored. You are one of my favorite people on this message board. Any disagreements I might have with you certainly do not in any way lessen my respect for you.
I have been asked a similar question by Christians who believe in never-ending Hell: âIf Iâm going to someday get to Heaven anyway, then what is the purpose of becoming Christâs disciple NOW?â
My answer is the same: Love. Heart-breaking love. If I knew for a fact that the atheists were right and that extinction were our lot, I would still love my wife and daughter. If I knew for a fact that I would burn in Hell to all eternity, I would still love my wife and daughter. Regardless of what will or will not happen to myself or anybody else after death, it does not change the fact that my glad duty is to love my neighbor. It would be silly of me to disobey Christ because He is so good. Rather, I strive (and typically fail) to obey Him precisely because He is so good.
My fellow Scot! (My last name is McKinney.) What is âthe kingdom of Godâ? Fortunately, we do not have to speculate since St. Paul the Apostle succinctly defined it for us: âThe kingdom of God isâŠrighteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spiritâ (Romans 14:17). The kingdom of God is not another way of referring to âHeavenâ. Rather, the kingdom of God is âthe peace that passeth all understandingâ. Paul is not saying, âIf you do these wicked things, you will not go to Heaven.â Heaven forfend. If that were the case, what hope for any of us? Rather, Paul was making a very simple and very common-sense but easy-to-miss point:
If you are sinful, you will not have Christâs joy in your heart.
Or, to put it more precisely: The more sinful you are, the less of Christâs joy you will have in your heart. The holier you are, the more of Christâs joy you will have in your heart.
We experience this in our day to day lives. We see it in the lives of the saints. They radiate joy, regardless of their circumstances. We see this in the lives of rich, notorious sinners, who are awash in the âgoodâ things of this world, yet are wretched and miserable.
To put it in the simplest terms I can think of: Donât sin! It will make you unhappy!
I thoroughly and 100% agree that ALL sin has painful consequences, and thank God for it. How terrible it would be if we could sin and not suffer for it! I simply believe that we suffer ALL the consequences of our sins in this life. We get exactly what we deserve for our sins in this life. I do not think we ever need tell a person, âJust you wait! You are going to get it in the afterlife!â Rather, we can know with certainty that we will suffer for our sins before we die.
Unfortunately, most of us (including Christians) have been deceived in what we think of as true punishment. We have lurid fantasies about writhing in physical pain, usually accompanied by fire. We think primarily of physical sufferings and privations. We think of horrible diseases, homelessness, starvation, imprisonments, concentration camps, etc. (not to speak of imagined post-mortem sufferings).
Paul himself said such things are not even worth thinking about (Romans 8:18). Not even worth thinking about!
What did Paul say about the so-called âgood thingsâ in life? He called them excrement! (Philippians 3) Not possessing as much excrement as others is hardly a punishment!
So what is the judgment for our sins? What is our punishment? What sufferings do we merit? The only one worth mentioning: Loss of Christâs joy in our hearts.
It breaks my heart that so many of my Christian brethren have basically said to that: âIs that it? So what? Who cares?â
Who cares? Alas for those who think thus, who think that Christâs joy in oneâs heart is a light matter. To the contrary, it is all that matters. If one has Christâs joy within him, then sufferings (whether sickness, pain, poverty, imprisonment, starvation, etc.) are beneath notice. But if one does not have Christâs joy, then all the excrement (whether health, pleasures, riches, honors, power, etc.) in the world cannot fill the void.
We thus see the perfect symmetry and efficiency of Godâs judgments. Our punishments do not have to wait for the afterlife, nor for some future day, nor have even a momentâs delay. When we sin, we are immediately judged by our holy God. Have you ever felt Christâs joy in your heart as you victimized a brother? Of course not! THAT is your punishment. If only we would stop sinning (which should be the easiest thing in the world), our hearts would be overflowing with unspeakable joy, a joy besides which all the riches and pleasures of the world are worthless. We are sad, and burdened, and listless, and afflicted by our lack of joy, and we lack joy because we sin. That is our fearful punishment, far more severe and dread than any imagined Hell, Purgatory, or whatever.
Forgive me any infelicities of expression.
Let me inject a question here. Would anyone here have an issue or concern, if their way of unfolding events were logically sound, but eventually turned out to be incorrect?
Not meâŠ
Iâm sure that the Truth (Who is God Himself) is even better than my formulations of it. I therefore eagerly await my corrections.
âWe know in whom we have believed, and we look for that which it hath not entered into the heart of man to conceive. Shall Godâs thoughts be surpassed by manâs thoughts? Godâs giving by manâs asking? Godâs creation by manâs imagination? No. Let us climb to the height of our Alpine desires; let us leave them behind us and ascend the spear-pointed Himmalays of our aspirations; still shall we find the depth of Godâs sapphire above us; still shall we find the heavens higher than the earth, and his thoughts and his ways higher than our thoughts and our ways.â
(from âThe Higher Faithâ in the 1st volume of Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald)
Hi Geoffrey,
Thank you for your kind words, and even more for your kind heart which shines through your words.
Yes, my question is similar. But my reason for the question is vastly different. I am quite disturbed by the common misconception. I asseverate that the idea that Christ died to save us from hell or from some form of retributive punishment is a grave error, and great misrepresentation of salvation itself.
Clearly the apostles Paul and Peter gave the reasons for Christâs death. Even the angel who announced the birth of the Messiah declared that His name should be called âJesusâ since He would save His people from their SINS. If the angel thought like those believers in eternal conscious punishment to which you referred, he would have said to Joseph, âYou shall call His name âJesusâ for He will save His people from the punishment of their sins.â Saving from sin is tantamount to saving from sinning. The Lord wants us to love and serve others, and never to knowlingly harm anyone. This is αγαÏη. This is genuine LOVE.
Here are the reasons Paul and Peter and the writer to the Hebrews gave for Christâs death:
**I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Heb 9:26 âŠhe has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.**
In order to save us from sin, Christ must, together with our coöperation, overcome our self-serving nature, so that we begin to love and serve others. Like a loving human father, the Lord must use loving discipline in order to accomplish this. Salvation is a PROCESS!
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
âMy son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.â
It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.(Heb 12:4-11)
A human father cannot work a kind of magic which instantly transforms his children. He must TRAIN them over time, until they learn. So it is with us and our heavenly Father. Christ made it possible by his death that we could learn righteousness and eschew evil, but we must learn to work righteousness in coöperation with Godâs enabling grace which is made available to us through Christâs death couple with our faith.
Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2Cor 6:1)
Unless we coöperate with Godâs enabling grace made available through the death of Christ, we receive it in vain. It wonât help us at all. We canât work righteousness by self-effort, and God wonât impose righteousness on us without our coöpration. But working together with Him, it becomes entirely possible!
So it is not that wrongdoing has only natural unpleasant consequences, but God uses disciplinary measures that will be unpleasant, both in this life and the next! God will never give up on anyone until he submit to Christ and becomes rightous. This is Godâs great plan of the agesâto continue to work with man until all are willingly reconciled to Him.
Through a careful reading of the scriptures, it becomes clear that Godâs loving discipline continues in the next life. Seeing Jesus wonât suddenly transform those who hate Him. That wasnât enough to transform Jesusâ enemies here on earth. They saw Him, and still had Him put a the horrible death by crucifixion.
I donât think Paul was DEFINING the Kingdom of God with these words. He was saying that the Kingdom of God is not ABOUT food and drink, but about righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, âThe kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, âLook, here it is!â or âThere!â for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.â (Luke 17:20,21 ESV)
Any kingdom consists of a king and his subjects. There, right in the midst of the Pharisees, stood King Jesus, and his subjectsâthe disciples. This Kingdom has been growing ever since. And the time will come when its growth will be complete, and the kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdom of God and His Messiah forever! (See Revelation).
Without having read ALL of this, I think that, if you do not believe in significant human free will, then it makes perfect sense to be an ultra-u. If you have had no freedom to choose here in this life, then nothing youâve done could reasonably be held against you, no matter how horrendous it might be. On the other hand, if you DO believe in at least a significant degree of free will, then ultra-u does not make much sense at all. If we have freedom here, and Christ is also MAKING us free(er), then it makes sense that some sort of correction (whether you call it treatment or punishment or a bit of both) has to occur. It may occur in this life, and be sufficient.
On the other hand, we observe people who die in their sins, loving and clinging to their sins. Whether such a person is a genuinely sincere follower of Christ who simply cannot find the will to let go of this or of that sin, or a rebellious and enthusiastic sinner who has no desire to forsake sin, that person is going to need some healing/correction at some point, and the life to come would seem a likely âplaceâ for that to occur. If we say that we are changed in an instant at the point of death or of resurrection, then that is not compatible with the development of freedom. For a person to truly be free, he must BECOME free. I donât think that God taking over our will and suddenly making us instantly incapable of choosing to sin is compatible with the concept of free will. I do think that we will grow into that kind of strength of will and that we will with time and progress, become psychologically incapable of choosing to sin â not because God zapped us and brought on an instant change, but because we have seen the true color of sin and want none of it.
Regarding Hitler and Bin Laden, we donât know that much about them, especially Bin Laden. Iâm not sure precisely how much responsibility can be justly laid on such men for their atrocities. (Iâm not saying theyâre not responsible â not at all â Iâm just saying I donât know HOW responsible they are.) If a person is insane, he is probably not quite as responsible for his actions as a sane person. I donât know about Bin Laden, but I donât think thereâs any doubt that Hitler was at least somewhat insane. If he were suddenly brought to complete sanity, how would he respond to the knowledge of what he had done? Could it be that the horror of his deeds would be the very punishment needed to cure him of any psychological ability to repeat such atrocities (even if he had the power)? Again, I donât know. But the point is, I think, to give the punishment â not for the purpose of revenge â but rather for the purpose of reform. If we forgive, then we have no need for the other party to be punished. We need him to genuinely repent and to display that by doing to the utmost whatever he CAN do to make amends, but we honestly donât need vengeance on a person who is now a true brother or sister in the Lord, being actively conformed to His image by the power of the Spirit, to the glory of the Father.
