The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Universalism, Arminianism and free will

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

It seems that unlike ** hopeful ** universalism, dogmatic universalism needs to deny libertarian free will.

For surely, if people are free, one cannot rule out that some will reject God.

It is at this point that there is a huge tension Arminians face.
If people are free to reject God now and lose their salvation, why could they also not reject God in heaven?
And if God renew them in such a way they no longer have the choice from that point, why could he not do it earlier?

I am myself an Arminan and I am tempted to resolve this tension by asserting it is possible that people go away from God in the new earth, even if it is probably very rare.

But I know it is not very satisfying.

Given the fact that Calvinism leads to a monstruous god and that Arminianism has this kind of tensions, I really think that Universalism should be considered as an option within Christendom, even if it seems hard to reconcile with Christ’s threats of eternal judgement towards some very religious people.

As I said, I think that OT imagery about eternity can be best understood as meaning “utter destruction” but I don’t view how this can be compatible with the salvation of these destroyed individuals, for surely (the historical) Jesus would have told us so if it was what He meant.

#2

We can never overstimate the persuasive power of Christ.

#3

Frankly, I don’t believe in “libertarian freewill”, never have, even when I was an Arminianist. I see scripture as presenting that we are born slaves in this present evil age, dead in our sins, darkened in our understanding of God, slaves of unrighteousness, oppressed by evil from without and within. Slaves and the dead do not have “freewill”. We do not choose to be born, choose when we are born, choose our talents or social status, choose the family we’ll be raised in, even choose to have faith in God. The choices we make are constrained by our temperments, personality, giftings, addictions, values we’ve inherited, world view we’re steeped in, things we’ve experienced and haven’t experienced, etc.-- none of which we have any control over. One must be alive and free in order to truly have “free will”. In other words, we must be made alive in Christ, delivered from the evil within and without in order to have free will. One must be “free” in order to have “free-will”. Even faith is not something we choose, I believe; rather, faith is a gift that grows in us as we encounter the Lord.

I’ve loved God sense I was a child, why? I don’t know. When I was 6 I went with my aunt to church and was drawn to Jesus like a moth to a flame. Since childhood I’ve had a hunger to know scripture, to know and experience God, a hunger even my siblings did not have. Did I “choose” this hunger? No. Did I choose to have faith in God? Not really. To me, relationship with God is like gravity; you can fight it for awhile, but you’ll eventually come to realize you can only rest on the ground. When people are saved, delivered, and set free from evil, the natural “choice” is relationship with the one who has saved us and set us free.

I have much more faith in God than I do in man, especially this man, me!

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#4

Hello Sherman, thanks for your answer!

So you are a divine determinist believing in universal salvation.

I certainly agree that God is not a monster according to such a view BUT it makes Him responsible for all the rapes, murders, genocides and atrocities commited during the course of history because He is the one who cursed us with a sinful nature.

Fortunately for Bible-believing Christians, the author(s) of Genesis did not believe that.

But if it were true, even if would not view this God as being monstruous, I could not (at least during this earthly life) worship him while thinking on the holocaust he caused.

But maybe this is just me…

#5

In my view God can either directly cause something or permit something (evil) to happen. This seems to be taught in scripture. God doesn’t directly cause evil. Rather He permits it (for good and justifiable reasons) to bring about His overall plans and purposes. His permitting evil is a kind of indirect causing. That is, His permission is a kind of secondary causing not a direct causing. For example: Satan gets permission from God to torment Job. God allowed Satan to take Job’s family and make Job sick. Yet Job says, “The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away” and “Shall we recieve good from God and shall we not recieve evil” - to which the writer responds: “In all this Job did not sin with his lips”. The Father that you call a monster is the Father of scripture. It is this God that Jesus trusted and relied upon.

#6

“He is the one who cursed us with a sinful nature”

Does anyone really teach that? I thought it was clear that He blessed us with his image.

#7

If Calvinism is true, God is the ultimate cause of everything.

It follows He caused the fall and the sinful nature too. Actually this is what all thoroughly thinking Calvinists teach.

It is very sad for they are causing many non-Christians to feel disgusted about the Gospel they view as identical to Calvinism.

#8

I am a firm believer in universal reconciliation of all people to God, and also a firm believer in libertarian free will.

Of course no! Indeed, many will reject God. But can they resist God FOREVER? That is the question. If they can, they will be as powerful as God! God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should have (ever)lasting life. Is God powerful enough to see that His will shall be accomplished, even with free-will agents?

An analogy of tossing a die might be considered—tossing it to check whether a six turns up. One might toss it several times with no six. It is possible even that one could toss the die 100 times without six turning up even once. But could one toss the die FOREVER without turning up a six? Theoretically—yes. But practically—no. So it is with people resisting God. Theoretically, a free-will agent could resist God forever, but practically, no free-will agent is able to do so.

#9

It sounds like you are talking about Hyper-Calvinism rather than Reformed Calvinism. Even here though not all agree.

So long as God has good reasons He can create evil. Just as God “creates” darkness by removing the light, God “creates” evil by removing His grace. For God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.