The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Universalism doesn't eradicate evil it makes it part of God

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#21

Actually the Sea is talking about this giant bathtub which was created in Solomon’s Temple for the cleansing of the priesthood before entering the Holy of Holies. When all are cleansed, there is no more need for the Sea.

1 Kings 7:23; 40-47 [truncated]
Now he made the Sea of cast metal ten cubits from brim to brim, circular in form, and its height was five cubits, and thirty cubits in circumference.

So Huram finished all the work he had undertaken for King Solomon in the temple of the LORD: **the Sea **and the twelve bulls under it; the pots, shovels and sprinkling bowls. All these objects that Huram made for King Solomon for the temple of the LORD were of burnished bronze.

This is something else, since, if there was no ‘Sea’ how can there be a sea? See? So this sea is not the bowl from the Temple, but a sea of glass was what ‘looked’ like a sea and standing beside it, a victorious people. This means this sea was never really a sea, but what John perceived as a sea, see. I just like saying see.

As mentioned before, in the beginning the waters are not an ocean of evil, but the Waters of Life, God’s very Being.

We have to read Scripture in whole and recognize similarities do not mean they are talking about the same thing. You have a lot of old doctrine formed from the ECT days still rolling up in there distorting your perceptions.

#22

“This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.” If there is no darkness in God, it can be found only outside of God. And since all things that exist exist in God, evil must be non-existent. God in Christ knows evil subjectively but not objectively. Evil is the absence of the good. Not even God knows what Nothing is. But I’m repeating myself.

As for God creating evil, I’d be careful how you say this and to whom. There are many people eager to drag God’s good name through the mud, and others whose faith might be destroyed by such a claim. The other day, a man threw his 4 year old daughter off a bridge to her death just to spite his wife. Was that evil act God’s idea, initiative and creation? “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.” If God refuses even to tempt someone to evil, how can he be accused of creating that evil? If Isaiah suggests otherwise, we have misunderstood his intent.

Here are some definitions from Strong’s lexicon.

Formless: to lie waste; a desolation, desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain – confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

Void: empty; a vacuity, a ruin

the Deep: confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, vain, vanity, waste, an abyss (as a surging mass of water)

Darkness: chashak; (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness, obscurity.

Moved: ra·che·fet, hovered, trembled

the waters: waste, wasting, watering; by euphemism, urine, semen, piss

This passage is relentlessly grim. The force is lost in translation. God isn’t hovering lovingly over an ocean of Life. Rather, the Spirit of God trembles above an ocean of evil, a cosmic cesspit. Christ also sweated blood when he stared into the abyss.

#23

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.”

The scope is this verse is cosmic. Heaven and earth have been transformed into something new, but the sea is gone forever. It’s too great a stretch to say this means heaven, earth, and a ritual bathtub. Nice try, but no cigar. :wink:

Heaven and earth, being God’s positive creations, are both renewed. The Deep, the dark, formless, void, chaotic unreality where God is not, is destroyed by a remarkable transformation.

It looked like a sea, but it wasn’t water but glass glowing from within. God’s light now fills the Deep. It is no longer dark and chaotic, but clear and strong as crystal. God has won the mastery over sin and death. Christ descended into hell, taking the Light of Life with him. Christ stilled the waves, walked on the water, turned water into wine, and destroyed the Dragon of old (the Chaos Monster).

#24

I guess you don’t understand the representation of Temple referred to the Heaven. The Sea is gone forever, refers to the Old Kingdom has passed away, and the New Kingdom has arrived, cleansed by the blood of Christ.

#25

This conversation makes me smile. Symbolic language is very open to interpretation! But in this we are agreed: The Old has passed away. The New has come. And God has worked this miracle for us through Christ.

Kind regards. :slight_smile:

#26

Friends, I was going to write something very hard to read, but instead I will make it an easier read for little ones who may come across readíng this. Theodice doesn’t work, but we have comfort in two things; a) the larger hope and b) recognition that the matter is far above us. It’s an appeal to ignorance yes, but we are ignorant about what is not revealed. We can not understand the ways of God and we should not feel that we have to excuse him (theodice). He is, as it’s said here, a big boy and, I add, not subject to the court. Diving into the issue will only be painful and fruitless. I have experienced that and now I relief myself of the burden. We believe God is good not by carnal reason but by the Spirit. However we are allowed to comfort ourselves with our reasons for trusting in God.

About fears for causing people to stumble, I believe the only thing we can do is to approach the issues with love. I believe there are people that are also hurt by the message of UR or EU. I believe there are people where the fear of perishment is their motivation for holding on to all they have, their faith. Please be careful, consider what happened to the historical US movements of Unitarianism and Universalism.

#27

Hi there, I would think they are only “hurt” because of their fear. I would think it far better to help eradicate the fear than to withhold the truth of God’s love for them and all. (Afterall it IS LOVE that casts out all fear…) Love destroys fear. Better to fight fear with the only weapon that can stand against it: love. Know what I mean?

Perhaps I am completely misunderstanding what you are saying?

Can you fill me in… I’m not sure what you are referring to.
Thanks!
peace,
sparrow

#28

Hi Sparrow,

I was pointing out the history of the Americanbased Unitarian Universalist movement. They gradually turned away from their Christian faith. That Universalist project went horrible wrong. I’m not sure people think that rational as we suggest when we look at the moral horrors of ETC. Many stick to the newer version where it’s more like man’s puzzling descision to turn down God’s free offer and choosing eternity without him. Ultimately many would say it’s in God’s hands but we have to do so and so. I think most need to think that way.

#29

Hi Joen,
I guess I’m just not understanding your meaning.
You are saying it’s better that some people not know of UR? Because their “fear of perishment” (or I’m guessing you’re saying their fear of eternal torture) is what is keeping them holding onto their faith?

But holding onto their faith in…what??
faith in some God of fear who will torture them if they stop having faith?
What kind of faith is that? It’s not the faith in a loving God but a faith in a God of fear?
How can that be beneficial?

I think that that what you are suggesting, to have people hold onto an illusion basically, is potentially damaging. In my way of seeing it, It is facilitating fear and doing nothing to promote love, as far as I can see.

Fear is destructive.

The unitarians… maybe have just become misguided perhaps, but if they are following LOVE, they are following God. Anyone who is following the path of LOVE is following GOD in my eyes, because we know that God IS love. They may not put two and two together and REALIZE that they are following God, but eventually it will be revealed to them. “When Lord… when did we do these things?!”

If the idea of the gospel (that Jesus is the saviour of ALL mankind) hurts some, then perhaps they need to go through that in order to grow and TRUST and LOVE and eradicate their fear. The good news IS GOOD news for every human being in every situation. There is not a single scenario that I can possibly think of where the good news would be “bad” news or something NOT to share and promote.

Just my thoughts…
peace,
sparrow

#30

Except that it IS revealed. Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15:22, for instance.

#31

Hi Sparrow,

You seem to be saying there is no Gospel with ETC or partialism. I can tell you millions of Christians have lived and died with the assumption that there is. I’m sure you know they are not saying hey God will torture you forever if you dont believe. That’s an outsiders conclusion you dont see when you are in the system. Logic and religion are not bedfellows. They are saying something like God offers you to spend eternity with him, but you can also choose to spend eternity without him. I’m sure you also know that many people today think of hell as a place where God isn’t present (which is nonsense, but so they believe), rather than that big barbeque party with devils with pitchforks. The big question is what you have if you get out of that system. The teaching of the immortality of the soul has always helped rationalising the belief as the soul HAS to spend eternity somewhere. I’m afraid most rejecting “ETC Christianity” reject Christianity all together. Most do not turn to annihilism or UR. Look how few conservative church-systems teach annihilism. Who teaches biblebased universalism but small groups and writers? I believe people like Origen were right when they taught the UR teaching with moderation, to those that could take it.

I’m speaking about Bible based Christianity, so I dont agree that the gospel is simply love. It has to be about Christ as Lord and Saviour.

#32

UR is, I was talking about the perfect answer to the problem of evil.

#33

Yes, I’m definitely saying that there is NO good news with “eternal torment”.

How so? How can anyone assume that there is ANY good news in ETERNAL torment?

I truly am not understand what you are saying here. Yes, many ARE saying “Hey God will torture you forever if you don’t believe”. I’ve heard it time and time and time again out of the mouths of christians.

The “most rejecting ET christiantiy” that are rejecting christianity altogether… well of course they are! How can you blame anyone for rejecting “christianity” with all of it’s hypocrisy. Love your enemies, children, but as for mine, I’m going to roast them alive forever, or I’m merely going to snuff them out as if they were nothing.

As long as the hypocrisy and the darkness that is within christianity remains, people are going to keep rejecting. It is not for us to withhold the good news.

“These things command and TEACH.”
We are to be lights. The darkness must be chased away with the LIGHT.
We preach the gospel, and it is not our responsibility to “convert” people.
Faith is a gift from God. God is in control, if a person believes or does not believe, it is not our doing… it is God.
We are simply to keep speaking of the good news. The gospel.

What you were saying about “teaching UR in moderation”. Again:

This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things.

The world is sick and in darkness because the world has not had the healing light of the gospel preached to the corners of the earth. It’s funny how some say “the gospel has just about been preached to all corners of the earth” I would have to say to that… NO. No it HAS NOT. Not even close.

Maybe we are just seeing things from such different perspectives, I guess.

peace to you,
sparrow

#34

Sparrow, it’s about perspective. As long as you are blessed with not seeing the problem of evil as a heavy burden, anything goes as God is held free of responsibility. I think Luther is right when he says the Spirit says God is good regardless of how many he saves. I was an adventist for many years never giving the problem of evil any thought and we didnt loose sleep over our belief that most would perish. Ok, we didnt believe in ETC, but we did believe most people would perish because they did not desire God and his ways. They were wicked and God was a rightious holy judge. The problem of hypocrisy in religion depends extremely much on your perspective.

#35

Hi Joen,

How can you possibly think that I am “blessed with not seeing the problem of evil as a heavy burden…” :open_mouth: :exclamation:

The darkness (non-love) in this world is a HUGE burden on my shoulders. :exclamation:

What do you mean “the spirt of God is good regardless of how many he saves”. Can you please further explain that statment because there are several ways I could take that and I’m not sure which way you are seeing it.

I’m not sure how you never lost sleep over the fate of others if you thought most would perish. I think you may have just blocked it out from your heart and mind because it was too horrendous a thing to think about, if that is what you actually thought was truth. And that is what so many people don’t get… they don’t LOOK at what they actually BELIEVE. They put it on a back shelf and not think about it. That is why so many are so STUCK in the christianity that says “love your neighbor” but “God is going to snuff out or eternally torture :astonished: those who are his enemies, or who don’t believe”. They don’t walk through that fear. Their hearts eventually form callouses and they can’t feel. And when that happens, the questioning stops. (Again, things become stagnant and there is no room for growth or further revelation if the fear is never dealt with.)

I just read a quote yesterday that sums this up for me. “Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the realization that some things are more important than fear.” I remember walking through that fear… and it was no easy task, He brought me through it though. I just remember thinking “I MUST know truth. Most are going to perish!!! How can this be??? I NEED to know truth, no matter what!” at one point I was curled in a fetal position (seriously) at the base of my shower crying out with every inch of my soul because of the thought of just ONE human being lost forever. :frowning: Well He brought me out of it and into the glorious truth. It was a horrible time, but I’m glad that I went through it because I got to the truth.
The way I see it, folks aren’t “bad” people for believing ET. They really are not at all. They’ve just hardened their hearts against it because it is too MUCH horror to face. :frowning: That’s all it really is. And you can’t blame them. We’re all just human, trying to make our way. But that fear has got to be dealt with. There is no fear in love and God is love.

I don’t know, this is just what happened to me, so I have a certain perspective of this whole thing. I was very humbled when I finally realized just how much God really truly loves us. I don’t know why he calls some out of the prisons of religion. It’s a mystery to me.

Now back to what you were saying. How can you possibly LOVE your neighbor… and also figure they’re going to be just snuffed out like they are nothing. What kind of diabolical god is that? I’m sure you look back and see that now. Don’t you see how love was stunted in your scenario of “believing God would snuff most people out” and yet you didn’t really even care? :frowning: If you believe in UR now… don’t you see how your heart has expanded so beautifully? How Love has the freedom to grow, because you KNOW that ALL are your brothers and sisters…? :slight_smile:

Joen… I kind of feel like we are maybe not talking about the same thing? Maybe I am confused as to what your saying.
I don’t know.
peace,
sparrow

#36

P.S. Joen… I have a vague feeling that perhaps I really am just misunderstanding what you are saying… :blush:
If so, I apologize for my zeal. Some subjects hit very close to home for me and my passion can possibly make me jump the gun and maybe I am not interpreting your words properly.
Peace and thank you for the conversation.
sparrow

#37

Hi Sparrow, it could also be because I am getting more liberal over the years or could be because I fail to express me correctly in a foreign language :wink: . My point is that people do believe there is a Gospel about salvation from hell and they dare not necessarily put God on trial. I mean take a look at a John Piper sermon. The man is moved to tears because he has been selected to avoid the ETC he so richly deserves. I suffer from the somber feeling of the other extreme; I think it’s a huge problem that the almighty God witness all this evil and dont interfere. Over the years I have come to terms with that incredible puzzle; why do all people not believe like I do :mrgreen: