Wow getting a lot of topics from this blog post But I’ve never come across this point before so I thought it deserved it’s own thread.
"]Universalism doesn’t eradicate evil it makes it part of God and his world because everyone is saved so all evil is part of their path to salvation and therefore a good and God ordained thing (this assumes a more Calvinist-Universalism).How does God eradicate evil in you then? i.e. evil was part of your path to salvation… God can use evil events for good, without making the evil a good thing. e.g. the Cross
Kinda like how if God gave everyone on Earth a good and comfortable standard of living and quality of life, with a house, food, vehicle, advancement, nice fitting career, peaceful life, and wholesome family atmosphere - that would some how make poverty a part of God because the people in Darfor, Sudan, Rural China, and under the bridge in New York would have been given something to totally eradicate their poverty instead of keeping all the wealth in the hands of those special elect few…
We just can’t let “poverty become a part of God”, that would unravel the whole universe if God were to provide the eternal wealth of himself to everyone and not just the religious rich and famous few…
What a silly notion. Eradicating poverty doesn’t make poverty a “part of God” no more than eradicating evil makes evil a part of God.
Alex, how do we avoid that God allowing us to experience the consequence of our sin results in something good, our repentance? This seems biblical and true to life experience. I guess Luke thinks it’s different then when, as parents, we allow our children to experience consequences, make decisions, knowing it’s for their own good, because we did not create this evil world? But what if a world in which we learn and grow necessitated that we understand what is evil and that evil results, not from God, but from us/the devil - things God allows for a time? Then it would not be that evil originates from God, but rather circumstances that he allows, for a time, in order that good may results? Maybe I’m missing the point?
Parents allow their children to experience evil, so long as they can ensure it won’t mean their irreparable harm. We wouldn’t, knowingly, allow our kids to commit suicide, but would allow them certain choices and consequences, even see value in their learning from their mistakes. I imagine God has everything under control in the way that he knows just what we need to learn, that it’s opposite him, but he still is in control - will not be succombed by it. Reminds me of this verse in Romans 18:20, “20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.” It would seem that, for whatever reason, God has allowed us to be subject to frustration for a good purpose, the creation (all of it I assume) to be liberated!
How does God eradicate evil in you then? i.e. evil was part of your path to salvation… God can use evil events for good, without making the evil a good thing. e.g. the Cross
I am curious what is confusing about it. In my opinion, the logical problem disagreeing with that statement, is to believe that evil exists as an anomaly which was unforeseen when God created all of creation.
If this is true, then God is not an all powerful God, neither is He an all knowing God, despite being an all good God. If evil exists separate from God, then there is no guarantee that God will prevail, no hope in any promise God could ever deliver us from it and no hope that after it is defeated, something more sinister can arise unforeseen by Him.
I’d rather think of it as a foreseen anomaly which God is immunising Creation to.
Corruptible perfection based on innocence —> Incorruptible perfection of which innocence emanates from. Incorruptible perfection is God’s kind of perfection; but God is uncreated, where as Creation is a created entity; if Creation is to have God’s perfection that perfection must come about by overcoming all possibility to corruptibility by that anomaly. IMO.
There is no such thing as a foreseen anomaly in creation, hence why it is called an anomaly, it is unforeseen, unexpected, irregular, inconsistent, not part of the plan. Something that is foreseen would not be anomaly, but expected, regular, consistent and part of the plan.
Again, the emergence of Evil that was not part of God’s plan, means God is imperfect and corruptible.
Since you have admitted that there is no external source to creation except for God Himself, then all creation and all it’s forces were purposely created. A Designer actually designed every part of the mechanism He is designing, including the part where stress is purposely applied to the structure to give it stability and the breakable moldings that come off once the structure is set. In the case of God, there is no allowances for anomalies or possible duress the structure will experience, since all forces pushing and pulling on the structure were created and activated by God Himself.
Expectancy and Abnormality are not mutally exclusive. A thing can be abnormal and still be foreseen.
“Your child will be born with its intestines thoroughly outside of its body, this is quite abnormal - but we caught it early.”
Not at all. But then I can easily turn it around and say that if it was God’s plan for moral Evil to emerge, and he created it, then he is worse than imperfect and corruptible - he is contemptible and wicked.
Yet it would do us no good to get into a spiral of turn arounds, I think.
No actually it doesn’t. the tables have not turned. You have no logical premise in which such conclusion could be made. The conclusion that God’s plan did not plan for moral evil to emerge, does not make Him imperfect or corruptible. To make such conclusion only demonstrates poor reason, linear vision, fallacious logic and an inability to understand the bigger picture and gives evil a greater power than it actually has.
I had addressed this earlier, creation is not Creator and therefore the emergence of evil in God’s plan being purposefully and willfully created, does not make God evil.
God created the darkness, that does not mean God is dark nor does it it mean He will not dwell in darkness.
Your reasons are emotional and you have publicly declared ignorance to believe it, simply based on an emotional appeal that has no logical premise but insecurity and fear that if God created moral evil, then God hence must be evil Himself and whatever evil you have experienced becomes personal and vindictive.
There is more to the universe and creation than the suffering we go through as part of creation.
You’re more than welcome to believe that if you wish. However, you’re assuming some things.
My conclusion is that he foresaw it, planned for it, and otherwise. But he didn’t create it.
Creation however, is an expression of the Creator. Nothing can be made that does not first exist within the heart of God to be made - out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
If God created Moral Evil, then Moral Evil is in him to be expressed into being.
No, Man is not God - but we are made in His image, and are his children. We are expressions of God, his breath is our spirit, our souls are meant to be like his, and our bodies will be glorified as Christ’s is glorified. As for God being “Man”, there is always Jesus.
He is the infinite source from which our expressed image is directly derived.
I just read through this thread and thought I’d share something I wrote about a year ago. It’s very closely related to your conversation here, but comes at it from a different angle.
In the beginning, God creates the heavens and the earth. The earth is chaotic and dark. Since God is absolutely non-chaotic and utterly filled with Light, Genesis tells me the first thing God does is to form a space where he is not. This space, the Deep, is pure evil. Not even God knows what it is. God knows all truth, but there is no truth in chaos for him to know. Thus, God takes an almighty risk in making the Deep. His Spirit hovers above this mystery, pondering, before turning on the heavenly lights, but even divine wisdom cannot penetrate the darkness. Rolling up his sleeves, God reaches in. Sheer power transforms chaos into cosmos. The story unfolds. Chaos seeps into Eden and Adam becomes infected. A grief-stricken God asks, “Where are you?” God has lost his beloved son. A shadow enfolds him. Not even God quite knows where Adam has gone. God no longer can stay hovering above the Deep. If he is to find his beloved Adam, he must enter the heart of darkness. He must descend into hell. God’s understanding must be made perfect through suffering.
God knows what evil is, just as you know what evil is without needing to participate in it. So, such statement doesn’t even line up to reason.
Metaphorically, He even placed in the garden a tree of knowledge of both good and evil. How can God create such a tree, if He never knew what evil was. It is absurd.
Genesis 2:9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
And when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge, knowing both good and evil…God said:
Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil.
God knows both good and evil, evil isn’t a foreign concept to Him. By simply knowing the truth, you know exactly what falsehood is. So, again, such statement doesn’t even line up to reason.
Daniel 2:22 "It is He who reveals the profound and hidden things; He knows what is in the darkness,And the light dwells with Him.
Job 12: 22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness and brings the deep darkness into light. He makes the nations great, then destroys them; He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.
Psalms 139:12-14 Even the darkness is not dark to You, and the night is as bright as the day darkness and light are alike to You. For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb.I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; wonderful are Your works, and my soul knows it very well.
As poetic as your belief is AllanS, it doesn’t have logical, or even Scriptural support. What you said, in my opinion, is simply not true.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light [which is already there] and create darkness [since prior it never existed]. I make peace and I create evil (Ra: every sort of evil), I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
As Israel blessed the children of Joseph, he says:
Genesis 48:16 The redeeming Angel [that is, the Angel the Redeemer–not a created being but the Lord Himself] Who has redeemed me continually from every evil (Ra: every sort of evil), bless the lads! And let my name [Israel] be perpetuated in them [may they be worthy of having their names coupled with mine], and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them become a multitude in the midst of the earth.
There is no difference in the evil which He created, and He redeemed us from, RA (every sort of evil).
This problem of Evil, is the very reason why Universal Salvation is the only answer to Soteriology. He created evil and in order that He may not be evil Himself, He had to also redeem us from it. The bigger picture of why He created it in the first place must be addressed, and the old notion that He had nothing to do with the emergence of evil must be disregarded along with the Soteriology that says some are saved while others are perpetually tormented for their sin in Hell.
My apologies, if it seems I am aggressive it is because I really cannot understand having a belief which is not formulated on Scripture and reason. It makes no sense to me why anyone would believe something they cannot explain or support.
I keep coming back to the light/dark metaphor. Light is real because it positively exists. Darkness, though subjectively experienced, is objectively non-existent. It is the absence of something positive, not the presence of something negative. Because it doesn’t exist, God cannot tell me what darkness is. In the same way, cowardice is the absence of courage, deceit is the absence of truth, cruelty is the absence of compassion, and so on. God cannot tell me what evil is because it doesn’t actually exist.
Darkness, being non-existent, is subjectively experienced by the living as pain and privation. Every child knows what its like to be left alone in the dark. Telling them that darkness is not objectively real is cold comfort. In the same way, God knows evil inasmuch as he has subjectively experienced it in Christ. He cannot know evil in and of itself, because it’s not objectively real. In the Garden God was saying, “Obey me and experience bliss. Disobey me and experience the darkness, the darkness I have subjectively experienced in Christ, who was crucified before the world began.”
Christ was made perfect through suffering. He was morally perfect already, but a perfect, subjective knowledge of the utter depths of evil could be gained by God in one way only. He had to experience it for himself, and once he had experienced it in time, he had eternally experienced it. Why did God need to share our suffering in this way? “After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many…”
Again, I would argue that God understands evil subjectively (He descended into hell) but not ontologically. There is nothing there to know.
It’s all in Genesis 1. God created the Deep, and hovered above the waters. The Deep was formless and void. It was empty of God, empty of good, and empty of all order. For God to make something truly Other than himself, he first had to create a space where He was not, which is tricky for an omnipresent being. Such a space would be pure evil. The evils we now see in the world are bits of that original ocean of evil seeping in from the sides. But God hasn’t finished yet. He will turn that water into wine. “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea…” “And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious…”
As earlier, I already shown where darkness doesn’t exist to God, but is a creation which we (creation) perceive to be dark. God created the darkness, just as He created evil. If it is withdrawing oneself to create emptiness as you say, it still remains His creation by His Action and Word.
The actually is, in the Beginning was God. There was neither good, evil, light or darkness. An existence which is completely foreign to the intellect and wisdom of men. All that existed prior to all things was Life.
There was no ‘darkness’ but ‘choshek’, which means obscurity, the condition of ‘unknown’ since nothing yet was created.
It was not over but ‘paniym’, which means ‘to be present’.
The Spirit of the Lord did not ‘hover’ but ‘rachaph’, which means to be softly, and lovingly affected.
The water is a metaphor for Life, referred to by Hebrew Tradition as the ‘Waters of Life’.
The light was created by His Word, prior to this, neither light or darkness existed, only obscurity.
Darkness came to being when God separated the light from the darkness.
Let us read:
In the beginning was God and this is the account of the creation the heavens and the earth both spiritual and the physical universe. Before it was created, the earth was formless and void, and obscurity was present in that depth, and the Spirit of God was softly and affectionately moved according to the waters of Life to create. So God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God divided in parts from obscurity, the light and darkness. He called the light, day, and the darkness, night.
But I’ve never come across this point before so I thought it deserved it’s own thread.
