This COULD apply to many theologies, for instance, double predestination Calvinism (especially if you believe you’re Elect)… Yet, it has the most bite, I think, with UR.
Essentially, could we be accused of creating UR from fear of death? Put another way, for a long time i had a debate partner (a vehement atheist) who “couldn’t understand” why anybody would want eternal life. He would quote Nietzsche that Christianity’s offer of immortality sucked all the joy out of life, that really life is only precious in the midst of death.
Many liberal Christians (a relative term… i should say demythologists; of course, perhaps there are some demythologizing subscribers of UR) also think that “eternal life” is superfluous, whereas “eternal meaning” is much more important.
So, I’m curious: how many of you are or have been thanatophobes? Did this phobia bring you to UR? Are you still afraid of death (I admit that I am very much; almost in direct correlation with my confidence in UR paradoxically). The thought of dying to me is absolutely terrifying. My wife thinks I should talk to people with NDEs for assurance… maybe that would help… but I’d like to hear your thoughts on all of this…
I don’t think belief in the universal reconciliation of all people has arisen out of thanatophobia. Rather, I would say most who fear death are infernalists.
Yes, I used to fear death. But that was not because I feared hell. The reason was that I thought the experience would be like going down into a deep, dark hole into nothingness.
Then at one point in my life I needed surgery, and had to be rendered unconscious. I feared that for the same reason. I wasn’t told exactly when I would become unconscious. There was a large clock in the room and I glanced at it. One o’clock, P.M. Then I heard a kind of tinkling sound. I glanced at the clock again. It was after three o’clock! Over two hours had passed, and I was totally unaware of anything. The surgery was over. I said aloud, “This is amazing!” The nurses ignored me. They thought I was rambling, in regaining consciousness.
I began to think that this is what death is like. You simply become unconscious, and the next thing of which you are aware is having been raised from death. That could be 10 years later, or 10 thousand years later. You won’t be aware of anything in between.
So now I don’t fear death as I used to. And that’s a good thing. I am 78 years old, and it won’t be very long until I must face it. But maybe I’ll have a few more years. My mother lived to be 101. My oldest brother still lives at almost 96, and my sister who is 91 is still alive.
I don’t think I fear death significantly more than other people, which I suppose is what thanato*-phobia* per se would involve. Fear of death is a natural reaction and usually helpful in most situations.
To me the charge sounds bizarre, and not only because psychologically I felt assured of my own salvation before I came to think Christian universalism is true. (On the contrary, CU has led me to much more seriously consider that I may in fact be punished post-mortem despite being a Christian! – if the apostles get warned so seriously, those warnings can apply to me, too, for much the same reasons as spiritual pride and uncharity!)
But I know there are Calvs who become Arms and Arms who become Calvs (Protestantly speaking) out of adjusting for fears that they do not have enough assurance of salvation; I’ve seen it happen both ways, although not to me personally. (My flirtations with Calvinism for a couple of years before college, had strictly to do with theology and philosophy.) “How can I be sure that God intends to save me?” Go to Arminianism. “How can I be sure God will succeed in saving me?” Go to Calvinism.
So someone rocked by fears either way could logically be drawn to universalism to quell those lacks of assurance, because universalism combines those assurances together. But it isn’t like either of the two lesser alternatives don’t routinely feature converts either way looking for assurance from fear; sometimes they do, other times they just think the scripture and/or the theology adds up better that way.
(I mean lesser in the sense of the doctrinal coverage being necessarily less; if there is only one assurance either way and not two, then that’s a lesser theology but not necessarily a worse or more incorrect theology. I mention this also because some members get upset when I describe modalism or unitarianism as a lesser theology than trinitarian or even binitarian theology; but I mean that the same way I mean Arm or Calv is a lesser soteriology.)
No. Christian universalism is the plain and simple truth, regardless of how anyone feels about or fears anything. One might as well accuse Euclid of writing the Elements because of fear of death.
I am not.
No.
No.
Obviously no one wants to get sick, get injured, or suffer, but I would not say that therefore everyone fears sickness, injuries, and suffering. Similarly, everyone typically lives his life so as to avoid immediate death, but I would not say that therefore everyone fears death. For that matter, I try to avoid splattering oil when I cook, but I do not fear splattering oil. All of these things are merely undesirable, but not to be feared.
I suggest manfully and rigorously facing and mocking your fear. It is all but certain that you will die (unless, of course, you are one of the few to be alive at the Second Coming). You could die today for all you know. But so what? Who cares? Billions and billions of people have died, and they are all OK. In fact, the vast majority of everyone who has ever lived has already died. You and I are weird and unusual in that we have not yet died. We will live and breath for a while, then our bodies will die and then snap: We will be rejoicing in Heaven.
There are no grounds for fear of death. It is fundamentally irrational. I’m confident that if you really get a grip on these facts, then your fear will necessarily evaporate.
This is a complicated and thought provoking post. Just observing what i believe to be some facts before I answer…
This ‘Thanatophobia’ could drive people to believe all sorts of things… Like, for example: “Believing in Jesus means you will live forever and not go to Hell”… Or “Kill for Allah and have virgins or something like that instead of rotting in Hell”… Or “If you drink this poison and die tonight, some space aliens will come and bring you into a higher existence” - Point being is that fear of death drives people to all sorts of religions and beliefs and so to charge only one religion or branch of religion would be absurd. Essentially this argument is moot when applied to such narrow criteria.
Everyone fears death, or least has feared death and in order to not fear it any longer, said person would have needed to find how they personally deal with it. Many people don’t seem to analyze their own motives and though processes, which is precisely why the basic question you posted is a good one. It may cause one to really look inside and find out why they no longer fear death, if indeed they no longer fear it.
Because everyone fears death, I am not sure how one would diagnose crossing from the realm of normal, healthy fear of death into the ‘Thanatophobia’ realm… Seems a bit ambiguous from a diagnosing standpoint.
Now for me personally, taking that into account, I’d say that a fear of death been with me my whole life. But it wasn’t death I feared perse, but what comes after. Namely, the potential to be cast into Hell if I didn’t truly repent. I mean, I said the prayer, I confessed with my mouth, yada yada yada, but I mean, the Bible warns people no to fall away, and so I must grit my teeth and get through life without falling away. So, again I repeat, the fear isn’t of death, but what comes after this death.
When my wife conceived with our first child, I started fearing for my child’s eternal destination. I thought to myself, how could I bring a life into this world with such a deck stacked against him? I mean, I had a vision or a dream a year before that where Jesus said over 99% are lost… What have I done? Strange, I always considered Eternal Hell as the ‘only’ option. I mean, you had heaven or you had hell, period. I knew my Bible. I memorized Matthew 5,6,7 - Psalm 23, James 1 and 2. I knew what the Bible said!
Then… I emailed my brother in-law about some religious things (basic calv, vs arm stuff) and at the end of the email, I asked him what he was studying… He replied with some things and then said ‘Still trying to figure out if Hell is eternal or Not’ - That shocked me, the thought it wasn’t eternal never entered my mind. I believe I replied with such shock… But, that actually got the wheels spinning in my head, which started my massive research. After about a solid year of hours per day of study, it become clear. Hell was not eternal. In fact, UR seemed plausible… Very.
Do I fear death now? Yes, but not because of the ‘afterlife’ rather, I fear it because I don’t want my children or wife to grieve over losing me. I don’t want to part with the ones that I love. Sure, I believe there is a better place in the afterlife, but I can’t be ‘sure’ of that. I can only believe it. It is possible the Atheists are correct and the thought of never reuniting with my family is extremely sad. So, yes, I do fear death. I fear it because I love my family. Now, am I Thanatophobic? No. Definitely not. But I do often think about death and use it as a catalyst to spend more time with those that I love.
From the perspective of a 3rd party observer (God, for example, or even family left behind), it isn’t ‘snap’. But, from the person who has died, it is very likely a ‘snap’ as even you yourself testified when you went under general anesthesia. For you that time passing was a snap. I believe this is the case very strongly. I also believe Paul said something about to die is to be with Christ. Clearly, since he wrote both books (presumably) he either evolved his viewpoints, or the two viewpoints were not contradictory in any way. I suppose the latter, as I don’t see 1st Cor 15:32 contradicting the idea that to die was to be with Christ.
I fully agree, Gabe. I do believe that after death, the next thing we’ll personally know is being with Christ in the resurrection. I just wanted to point out, that from the point of view of people continuing to live on the earth, this might occur thousands of years later. As recorded in John 6, Jesus said four times that He will raise up those who are His, at the last day (of the present age, when He returns).
The Pauline passage you had in mind might be the following:
Philippians 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
So clearly, Paul believed that the next thing he would know after his “departure” was to be with Christ.
Gabe beat me to it. Even from the point of view of “soul sleep” (or whatever one wants to call it), it’s still a case of “our bodies will die and then snap: We will be rejoicing in Heaven.”
From my perspective, death is a passing of one life into another. Scripture tells about the resurrection, and yet many fear it will not happen (resurrection) or fear what* it will be like*.
Please don’t get me wrong, death is a fearful and ugly event. I see it year after year in my employment. But* our understanding and faith in Christ *makes it a real part of life, a part we can realize and accept.
And then we can tell others how natural it is. And that a loving Father is waiting.
Indeed, you have found a way to deal with it. In the end, because I am such a skeptic, perhaps more appropriately a ‘doubting Thomas’, I don’t quite see it so rosy. I think death really, really sucks. When my parents die, it going to be the most difficult thing for me to handle. If, God forbid, my children die before me, how I will want to die myself, from the pain of losing them.
In my mind, saying death is merely passing from one plane of existence to another, doesn’t really make me see it any differently. For me, if my son were to leave my home and go away forever (thing of conscripted soldiers back in ancient times) he might as well be dead. Not from his perspective, but from mine and from his perspective, I might as well be dead. Death is about ‘loss’ and we lose the relationship when someone passes on.
I believe very strongly in Jesus Christ, and in God. But, that doesn’t mean my belief is correct. So, as you can see, I am and probably always will be a doubting Thomas. The only difference is, Thomas refused to believe until he seen… I am merely refusing to be dogmatic about it until I see…
But what I want to really hit home on is that others have found different ways to deal with death. In some ways, the atheist has a very healthy outlook on it, because he doesn’t have the luxury of thinking “I don’t need to spend as much time with my kids, because, heck, we will live forever! We will have plenty of time” and so the Christian, the one who expects to live eternally is far more prone, in my opinion, to squander his days and ever acting like an escapist. How many Christians have said to me “Oh, I can’t wait to get out of this hell hole” or even, God bless her, as my mother says “This is the only hell I’ll ever know” - But that outlook isn’t all that good. That is escapism, something Christians are very prone too.
In many ways, a lot of how we deal with this is how we choose to process and accept them. If we accept a belief as strong as a fact, then our brains will allow us to do so. With that said, I can understand the desire and importance to believe ever so strongly that we will be reunited. But, at this stage in my life, I consider that to be trying to accept something as truth, that I am not absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of all doubt. I did that once, and it didn’t get me anywhere… That said, ignorance is bliss. Of this I know… And, for the record, I am NOT calling you ignorant
All the more, I am thrilled people can come to terms with this. The parent who loses a small child and somehow finds the strength to move on. That is such an admirable quality, but one I just cannot fathom possessing. I don’t think anyone can until they go through it.
"And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:26)
By His death, Jesus Christ obliterated death. While this “mortal trash” (cf. “That Nature Is a Heraclitean Fire and of the Comfort of the Resurrection” by Gerard Manley Hopkins) will certainly die, we shall not. Does a preborn baby die when he emerges from his mother’s womb? Neither shall we die when our bodies die. Our souls shall never cease. One moment we are in this fallen world, and the next we are in Christ’s undimmed presence. I wouldn’t call that “death”. I would call that “much more life”.
Those in Heaven are closer to us than we are to our children as we hug them. We here in this fallen world can speak with our loved ones in Heaven. And our loved ones in Heaven can help us much more than they could when they were in this fallen world, and they now love us with a perfect love (as opposed to the very imperfect loves we have here on earth).
Any fear of physical death we have is a snare of the Devil. Each of us should look upon physical death with serene equanimity. Consider the martyrs who sang for joy as they and their children were martyred. That is the truth to which we must strive with all the strength that is in us. Let us not fear the thing that Christ has slain. “Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!”
Also, though not on topic, quoting Paul at 1 Cor 15:32 and ignoring the context, doesn’t help a case for anything. If the dead are not raised, then Christ was also not raised, and if Christ is not raised then our lives are worse than in vain.
But Paul was probably quoting his Epicurianesque opponent in the Corinthian church anyway, to rebuke him. The immediately subsequent verses bear on this: he quotes back another philosopher, against him, and tells his readers to stop sinning and following someone who doesn’t know anything about God. After which he more explicitly quotes his opponent, “But someone will say,” etc.
John 11 (ESV)
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
In this translation (as well as many others), Jesus words in vs 26 contradicts those in 25. Verse 25 states that some believers who have died, will live again. Verse 26 affirms that no living believers will die. So to get around this contradiction many say that verse 26 is talking about “spiritual death.”
Is it reasonable that Jesus would use the word “die” in one sentence to mean physical death, and in the very next to use it to mean “spiritual” death?
I suggest the problem is in the translation. Verse 26 doesn’t say “shall never die.” It says “shall no way die into the age.” I suggest that “the age” refers to the next age. He was saying that the death of living believers will not continue right into the next age. For Jesus will return at the last day of the present age, and raise them to life again. So verse 26 is actually saying the same thing as verse 25, but in a different way for emphasis. The message is that those who entrust themselves to Christ will not die and stay dead, but will be raised to life again when Christ returns.
In John 6, it is recorded that Jesus said 4 times that He would raise his own to life at the last day (that is, the last day of the present age).
Though most translation have “shall never die,” there are at least 3 that don’t:
Young’s Literal Translation: “shall not die—to the age.”
Rotherham: “shall not in anywise die, unto times age-abiding.”
Douay (Catholic Bible) “shall not die forever.”
True, the Douay could be interpreted as “shall never die.” But it could also be understood as “shall not remain dead forever.”
Before Jesus Christ’s death at 3:00 p.m. on April 7, 30, everyone who ever died simply…died. They were no more until Christ awakened them and led them up into Heaven immediately after He died.
After Jesus Christ’s death at 3:00 p.m. on April 7, 30, everyone who ever dies…doesn’t. Their heart stops, they stop breathing, their brain stops functioning, etc. But they themselves rejoice in Christ’s immediate presence.
John 11:25-26 is said almost in counterpoint to verse 24, in which I read the words to be spoken in a sorrowful, almost “So what?” tone: “Yeah, I know my brother will rise on the Last Day, but that could very well be thousands of years in the future, so what does that do for me now?”
In reply Jesus basically said, “The One Who resurrects is standing before you right now. I am going to bring Lazarus to life right now. Further, you need not worry about Lazarus or yourself ever dying again. I am about to destroy death *.”
Jesus said much the same thing to the thief on the cross: “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43) And it won’t do to put the comma after the word “today”, since in no other instances of Jesus using the phrase “Assuredly, I say to you” (Matt. 5:26, Matt. 6:2, Matt. 26:34, Mark 14:30, John 3:3, John 3:5, John 3:11, John 13:38, and John 21:18) does Jesus say, “Assuredly, I say to you today”. Moving the comma would make this common speech pattern of Christ’s into something unique.
In John 11:25-26, Jesus gave a prophecy. This was very shortly before His own death (two weeks, perhaps). He knew that between that time and His death, none of His followers would die. Therefore He could say in strict, literal truth, “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.” Of course, all the people (all of whom were non-believers) who died after Jesus made this statement, but before His own death, really died.
Christ’s death is a vast, huge deal. It destroyed death. Not metaphorically. Not someday. Not conceptually. No. At 3:00 p.m. on April 7, 30, death was slain. Nobody has ever died since then, and nobody ever will. And at the Second Coming, Christ will obliterate physical death even as He already obliterated personal death 1,986 years ago.
I don’t have a fear of ‘death’ per se BUT I do have a healthy fear “dying” as in… if someone had a knife to my throat you better believe I’d be doing my best to talk them around; yep it’s call “self-preservation” and is a normal human response. According to the definition above ‘thanatophobia’ is an “abnormal fear” of death, meaning fear to a degree where it paralyses someone’s normal everyday functioning. So no, regardless of my soteriological positions I don’t suffer from “thanatophobia”.
