Very eye opening, thank you so much, Gene! I will read Talbott’s book. I read Julie’s book, it was great but, I wasn’t sure where to go from there. I do like philosophy but, sometimes I think, "Does it have to be this difficult to explain? Can’t we just use some common sense! Of course, I was the one that didn’t show my work in Algebra because I didn’t consider those “steps” necessary, it just messed up my thinking. 
I’m more mature now. 
I can handle it. 
Hey Kelly, I did a search on the “rightful kings of the earth” but couldn’t find that passage - which one is that? In regard to “the kings of the earth” in Revelation it doesn’t tell us much about them except that they are hostile toward God. They committed adultery with “the woman” in Revelation, they make war against our Lord, the “King of Kings”, the rider on the horse, etc. They are completely opposed to Jesus. It doesn’t tell us how it happened, but all of the sudden there they are, at the end of Revelation when we are looking at a vision of the “final state of things” and it sure seems as if they have converted to Christ! The scriptures don’t tell us what happened, but the “kings of the earth” who were against Christ right up to the end are now for him! I think that the kings of the earth have repented and had their names added to the lambs book of life!
By the “old covenant view of God” I mean that people see God as a god of wrath and judgment so that when you die, there still has to be some form of punitive damage retribution paid by the entrant. But I just don’t believe that there “can” be any of that if the cross is everything Jesus said it was. I think much of the conclusions people have on this is still very much mixed with natural reasoning rather than pure forgiveness and grace. Either Jesus paid the price at the cross or he didn’t. The implication is that he did pay the price at the cross, but you still have to go through some form of hell after you die.
I just don’t see that at all. I believe the cross is greater than any form of disciplinary measures people try to tag on after the fact. So, I don’t see the wrath of God manifesting in the end. I don’t believe there’s any disciplinary action in his judgment at all. I think what Jesus did on the cross was my judgment. If the blood of the Lamb isn’t enough for the retribution of sin, do we really think spending an unknown amount of time, be it little or much, is really going to compensate?
where the old covenant displayed wrath, the New Covenant emphasized grace. The Old covenant was about justice, the New Covenant was about forgiveness. For me, the Old Testament isn’t about God’s relationship with man as much as it is the recording of the trail through which the seed of life passed through men to birth the Son into the world that would redeem man back to God. Once Jesus arrived on the scene, the old covenant was no longer needed. The New Covenant had arrived. No, this is not saying there’s no use for the old testament . . .it’s saying that we should read the Old Testament with New Testament principles. Spiritual grace trumps natural justice. Those whom we deem “evil” receive more grace than those whom we deem “good” because they were further away from righteousness than those who weren’t. yet “our” realm of thinking would say that those that were really bad have to spend more time in hell than those who weren’t so bad.
Old Covenant measures darkness. New Covenant measures light.
I understand what you are saying but the problem is that the scriptures in the New Testament speak graphically and clearly of punishment at the second death after the resurrection. This isn’t old covenant, it is new covenant scripture. The new is full of grace, but that grace comes by faith in Christ and not before. Furthermore, there is punishment of believers in such situations as Ananias and Saphira, and also it is mentioned in 1 Corinthians for believers who take communion in an unworthy manner - some get sick and some even die. Also, the punishment we’re speaking of here is corrective, so it IS grace. What do you make of scriptures in the New Testament about punishment?
***If the blood of the Lamb isn’t enough for the retribution of sin, do we really think spending an unknown amount of time, be it little or much, is really going to compensate?
I’m not talking about compensation here. I’m talking about corrective action made to bring the person to the cross so that he/she might repent and place faith in Christ. I also don’t think that a person is literally being tortured until they repent. I don’t think it’s like that at all. I don’t even think we can comprehend what it is God will do to bring us to a place of repentance. He doesn’t give us any details so we are only speculating.
Good Morning, Dirtboy!
I was thinking of the passages at the beginning of Revelation about the “kings”. 1:5 says Jesus is the prince if the kings of the earth and then in 5:10, John says Jesus has made us kings and priests unto God and that we SHALL reign upon the earth (indicating we have not as yet, like the current kings of the earth are.). We are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood. As Yehovah called Israel so, we are called to be. Then, in Revelation, it seems to switch over to speaking of the current kings if the earth, the rulers that were sitting upon thrones while everything was yet under the “unjust kings of the earth”. In 19:19 those kings, that are against Christ go into battle against Him. And, in 21:24, it looks like the “chosen generation” of king-priests are set in place for the next age. What do you think? Does that look like a reasonable flow of Scripture? I appreciate your thoughts!
Hi Nathan,
I am considering your thoughts on judgment. I really have not had that line of thought so, it’s new to me. I struggle with the word “judgment”, it implies some sort of accountability for sins. The Greek word translated judgment is “krisis”, which indicates some sort of trouble to me. I also think there must be some distinction between those who live for Christ now and those who don’t. And, if there is a distinction now, wouldn’t that necessitate a distinction at this future judgment? Not a distinction of our own goodness you understand but, something He is doing. I am mulling over your words. Thank you for taking so much time to try to help me get what you are saying.
Kelly,I think krisis means a decision, I think we read into it as something bad, and as Nathan pointed out the throne is white, not black.
I’m not sure about this issue, but this train of thought comes into my mind.
The wages of sin is death, and sin is condemned in the flesh. Once we step out of our flesh tent, the wages have been paid, the flesh has been left behind.
If we do go through correcting after death, I believe the only pain involved is our seeing our utter insufficiency in the blinding light of His glory. ( I have had an experience like this ). He wipes away the tears from your eye at the same time as your sins being laid bare. As you shrink away to nothing, he picks you up dusts you off, and floods you with the warmth of His love. We can’t stand before Him on our own, He sustains us with His love. It is a glorious “punishment”. I can’t wait to be there all the time.
This was my morning fb post to my friends . . .
Good Morning, Friends! Yehovah’s mercies are new again today, and everyday! May your path be like the shining sun, shining ever brighter unto the perfect day!
All taken from the old testament. I do not see God’s promises in the OT as darkness. Sin is darkness but, Torah is light. He is the light of the world even from the Genesis. I don’t know this angry, vengeful God you speak of in the Old Testament. I have continually read the whole Bible over and over for more than 20 years and I see Him and goodness, perfection and grace the whole way through. He is the same, never changing God every day. I don’t have a lot of “church teaching”. I hear people saying what you are saying but, I have never gleaned that from just reading the Bible. I see a God, perfect in every way who gave us “the way” to follow. I see we did not follow that way, we went our own way so, we were not walking in Him. It was not His way that was bad, it was our own way that was bad. I see a God who, even in our disobedience, made and kept promises of salvation to lead us back to the way and bless us again, such was always His desire. What I do see is even though we have accepted His salvation, we have neglected the path He set us on and gone back to wallowing in the mud, while using excuses of grace to disgrace Him. I have no agenda, or anything to lose here. Just saying, that is where only reading and studying Scripture has led me.