I have a question?
I’m trying to understand UR better. Is it true that UR requires justice at the judgement and a time of purification by fire (God) before those who reject the work of Christ on the cross in this life can be redeemed?
Some types of UR don’t, some types do. Sorry that’s not a very helpful answer 
(I’m yet to drink my morning coffee!)
In my view, it depends on the understanding on justice that is used:
There is Retributive justice, where a wrongdoing is punished, as it were, by some form of payback of harm for harm done. I do not agree with this view of justice, but I think that it is quite common. If we hold this and UR, then, for example, people may be punished after death as a form of retribution, or (taking a penal substitution view of the atonement, which I also do not mainly agree with) Jesus’ death stands in place even for these people, and they are only ‘punished’ in the sense of being encouraged to call upon God.
However, I would concede to Restorative justice, which aims to make whole and correct the offender (as well as the victim) rather than just administering punishment. It seems to me (in my opinion) that, either immediately after death or at a later point, people who have not (for whatever reason) come to Christ in their lifetime will have the opportunity for humane (but still possibly unavoidably unpleasant, depending on the person) discipline and direction that softens their hearts to accept God. This is, it seems to me, perfect justice, since all offenders are reformed completely, and a necessary stage in redemption.
Good question! 
Actually, that was helpful, Alex. Thank you. I just started to get a clue that this was the case.
Totally understand the morning coffee thing! 
I am still working this whole UR thing through the Scriptures but, I think I would agree with you. I have two opposing thoughts about this judgment idea that I need to reconcile. 1.) Jesus said that His Word would remain, even after the earth was “destroyed”. Which would necessitate a judgment of those who did not come under the blood covering of Yeshua and are still accountable for the sins committed in the flesh. But, 2.) We will no longer be in the flesh so, law may be different, at least in some ways, like the marriage laws. (No more marriage, in the flesh). Hence, the idea of restorative fire. What do you think? I would appreciate your thoughts. May the doors of heaven be opened to you!
Lots of my ideas about theology are formulated by what I think seems correct, so I would firstly like to say that I by no means am likely to be totally correct if I give an idea. However, I have some thoughts on what you just mentioned: firstly, personally I do not believe that judgement (as in punishment) is necessary ***because *** some people are still accountable for sin. This uses justice, it seems, in more a retributive sense, where people are punished because they are accountable (although, of course, you may have a different idea about this). Instead, I would say that people are punished (restorative justice) ***because ***they require improvement and not just because they are accountable, where punishment (more accurately ‘discipline’) is the only means by which to transform the individual. In this way, all people will need to be improved in order to live perfectly in future eternal life; generally, those who have put their trust in Jesus will be much ‘further along the path’ on this process.
I am very uncertain about all this, but I consider salvation to be a matter of being on the right path to God; this is the path through willing, conscious, personal trust in Jesus Christ. I take an inclusivist view in that I think that others who are not on this ‘right path’ (e.g. atheists) will, by other means, grow towards this so that they will reach it later, all through Jesus Christ, but not necessarily consciously (that is, they are developed by other means to trust consciously in Jesus Christ at a later point). Then, it seems to me, when a person is on this path of conscious trust, they are in the best possible position for God to develop and shape them from the inside; this is similar to the idea of ‘theosis’, where it seems to me that the death and (even more importantly) resurrection of Jesus Christ had the atonement purpose of being a mechanism by which people can grow to be more like Jesus (i.e. loving, caring, compassionate).
I am not claiming that this transformative view is definitely correct, but it, to me, does seem to have some value. However, you may have a different view of the atonement as providing a ‘blood covering’ (similar, I assume, to OT sacrifice and Passover) to certain people, which may then appear to require that those who are not under such a covering to take punishment by another means. Now, as I mentioned, I would not think that punishment is used in this way, but, even if we accept this (that punishment has both a retributive and restorative aspect), it does not mean that some people necessarily must be punished by other means. It is plausible that one of the two following scenarios is the case: a) people are given longer time to call on and trust in God through Jesus Christ, until all accept Him (and receive the ‘blood covering’), so that none need to take any separate retributive punishment, instead just requiring corrective discipline or b) the ‘blood covering’ of Jesus was immediately universal to all humanity, so that all retribution was instantly lost for all and restoration is the only line of justice remaining, so that the covering is for everyone and not just those with conscious acceptance of Jesus, but all people must trust in Jesus to be transformed.
As for the Law being different, I do not believe that God is bound by principles regardless, and I think that the Law of God is love and love alone (as in Jesus’ summary). However, certain conventions such as marriage may be removed from those in the different position to those in this life (i.e. those who have died and been resurrected into eternal life are in a different position to when they were alive on this Earth), and so, if there is a blood covering convention, of course this may change so that it is no longer necessary in the future. Alternatively, if justice used to have a retributive aspect to it, it may be the case that it no longer does in the future.
I’m not sure how Biblical these ideas are (but I do think that God’s ways in these areas are intelligible to humanity), but I would say, in summary, that God’s judgement is transformative and restorative (eventually) in nature, and not based on moral accountability but on restoration, and that the atonement (through Jesus’ death and resurrection) is not so much of a taking punishment act as a mechanism of transformation and theosis. Even if a blood covering is necessary now, a) it may not be in the future (changes in conventions), b) it may have be instantly universal or c) if not instantly universal, all people may be given sufficient opportunity so that they accept it. Thus, it seems to me that no problem arises as to a ‘blood covering’ that necessitates retributive judgement.
However, I would agree with a ‘restorative fire’ concept as you mention, not as a means of punishment in the usual sense of the word, but more of (using fire metaphorically) a transformative power of God, that everyone must experience (whether noe or in the future) to some extent. I would say that God uses such as ‘fire’ as the most loving means of reconciliation possible, and not out of any a priori requirement for punishment. Trusting in Jesus Christ may make such a ‘fire’ properly effective now, hence the importance of faith.
So, it seems to me that there is no absolute necessary need for a future punishment of a retributive nature, only the ‘restorative fire’ that you mentioned.
Sorry if I’ve rambled; please ask if I’ve been unclear (which I probably have). All blessing to you! 
Here’s my POV as well . . .
I’m not one that sees there’s a place or a period of time for individuals to go through judgment, reconciliation, retribution . . .after we die. If there were then for me, it’s again saying the cross was not enough . . .we need the cross “and” this . . .or the cross expereince “and” go through “that” . . . but for me, Jesus either paid it in full or he didn’t. If he did, then why impose a debt upon others that’s already been accounted for?
I “do” believe there is a spiritual purging that God brings us through in the process of our lives here in this realm due to the fact that what Jesus did dealt with the spiritual AND natural (by his stripes we are healed) and emotionally, and any other level we can come up with, the act of the cross encompasses ALL dimensions of our being. It’s just that while we live on this earth, in this realm, our flesh is confined to the limiations of time. And as such, even though our spirits have been cleansed instantly, it’s our minds that need continual renewal, continued purgings and so forth. Flesh needs to be fleshed out.
But when we die, we are no longer bound by “time”. which for me is the second part of this. If the spiritual side is not bound by time, how can we say that one would be put in a place of cleansing, purging, correction, age-ending punishment . . .what ever you choose to call it, how can we say individuals would experience these things for a short time if that realm isn’t governed by time in the first place?
I know it’s hard for us to swallow in saying people get off scott-free . . .but think about the principles of the kingdom . . .they don’t work in the same format as the laws of our realm. In fact it’s all the opposite of this realm… it’s like a mirror image in a way that when I look into a mirror, my left hand to me is my right hand facing me in the mirror. Least is greatest, first is last. Judgment in the spiritual kingdom is not the same as judgment in the natural. Everything on this realm is governed by death, in the spirit, everything is governed by life. Grace is the reflection.
Good thoughts, CC. I guess I see this whole thing, in a way, how I disciplined my children. If they outright disobeyed me intentionally, my judgment was against them and I spanked them for their good so, they could live. (For example, spanking for running out into the road when there was a clear “law” against it and they knew better. If, on my way out to get them off the road a car would have been there about to take my child’s life then, I would have pushed her out of the way and died in her place which, in essence is what Yeshua did.) After they spent some time thinking about it (and calming down), they would say they were sorry. I would reaffirm my love for them and our relationship would be restored. I suppose, if I would have died in their place, they would have been thankful and known that it was my love for them that caused me to “save” them and sacrifice myself (blood covering). Because of the experience, they would have probably never gone into the road again like that and would teach others so. When they would “sin” unintentionally, I would talk with them, tell them why what they did was wrong, they would be sorry they did it, I would hug them and tell them it was OK because they didn’t really understand but, that they need to be careful not to do that thing. I would spend some time reaffirming my love for them and make sure they knew this “accident” didn’t compromise our relationship in anyway. It wasn’t always this perfect mind you but, that’s the idea. I guess I view UR “judgment” somewhat in this way. All people will be reconciled, the ones not in intentional sin, will be affirmed right away in relationship with Him because the “spanking” fell to Yeshua on the cross. The ones sinning intentionally, not willing to yield to correction now, will be “spanked” or corrected at the judgment and reconciled in relationship with Yehovah. All of Yehovah’s correction is for the good of people, is loving and helps maturity along but, there is the spanking aspect. I suppose when my children thought me angry and mean, unloving and “ruling over them with an iron fist”, they did not understand my love for them or my desire for their good through discipline. What do you think about this concept?
I’m still pondering your thoughts and appreciate them. May Yehovah give us wisdom in understanding! Salvation belongs to Him and His blessing is upon us. Peace!
So, You believe that all purging of all people comes in each person’s lifetime?
This is a good point, Nathan. One I will think about. Are the “ages” periods of time? I don’t know. If they are that changes things.
I don’t believe any does get off scott free. God is love, justice and truth are wrapped up in love. HHmmmm . . . awesome, Nathan! The time thing really has me thinking and also the purging in this lifetime. All people do go through times of correction in this life. Thank you for the thoughtful response. May we be blessed as we put our trust in Him!
I agree, I don’t beleive we get off scott-free either. But I don’t think even now we can grasp just how much forgiveness has been given to us. I think “in this realm” as Jesus said “in this world, you will have trials and tribulation (that’s my definition of what hell “is”) . …BUT . . .be of good cheer . . .I’VE OVER COME THE WORLD.” I think much of what we experience in this realm stems from the consequences we, ourselves have created by our choices. This world, this realm is an extremely unforgiving realm. You screw up, you pay the price for it. But what’s it like in a realm where all your screw-ups have already been accounted for and dealt with??? Could you IMAGINE???
Actually, I can’t imagine but, looking forward to it!
My understanding of Torah is that it tells us what sin is but, the other part of Torah is that of reconciliation. I don’t think there is anything new under the sun. Bringing sacrifices for those sins brought people back into relationship with Yehovah and they supped with Yehovah afterward “on the mountain”, in reconciled relationship and joy. Of course, Yeshua is that sacrifice that “saves” us from our sins and helps us to walk in a clear conscience toward God. But, without the idea of a need for a sacrifice for sin (payment?), we would have to conclude that Jesus died in vain. I have a lot to think about on this one. Thanks, Nathan!
There are simply too many scriptures that speak of a post mortem punishment for me to think that this isn’t so. I don’t think it is because the cross isn’t enough, though. In my view, hell isn’t simply punitive, it is for the purpose of bringing people to the place of repentance. It’s all about reconciliation. The cross is enough, but you have to get a person to the cross for it to be effective in their lives. IF you confess with your mouth and IF you believe in your heart… The gospel is conditional upon our acceptance, I just believe that eventually all will accept it. Some folks come to it much harder than others for reasons that we cannot understand.
Thank you for your thoughts. Do you think the punishment is like a father spanking a child for the child’s own good type of a punishment or because of a need to receive justice in cases where someone is wronged? Or both? I’m wondering if it would be “right” or “ok” if someone hurt (or hated) his neighbor by sinning, for example if someone murders a child, and there were no consequences (or justice served) in that situation. I know once the judgment age is over there is no need for retribution but, doesn’t the whole gospel message start out with the idea that we have not loved God or our neighbor because we have not kept Yehovah’s commandments and that is why we need an atonement for sin, a covering? If we have no covering than we go into judgment and we pay for our own sin. Do I have that right from a UR perspective? I would appreciate any help on this. I know what I think UR from what I know right now from the Scriptures but, I don’t know any of the doctrines of UR. Thank you again, and in advance for your help! Peace and Joy!
Hey Kelly,
I definitely think that! When you read through the Old Testament it reads like a love story between God and Israel. The book of Hosea is especially profound in that regard where Israel is an adulterous harlot and God is seen as purchasing her “as is”. There are some swift and horrible punishments but God makes it clear that reconciliation is always the goal with them and He never delights in the punishments that He gives. Traditional theology would have us believe that God completely changes toward us when we die and that He completely changes the way he does things. The loving, forgiving, long-suffering God suddenly will NEVER forgive and NEVER love again. This is not congruent with the picture God has painted of himself continually throughout scripture. YES he punishes, even quite severely, but God never does anything outside of love as He IS love, just as he never does anything outside of holiness.
So the picture painted in Revelation is a very harsh punishment. OK, but He still loves these people He is punishing. Just as the harsh punishment toward Israel was for their ultimate redemption, I don’t see where that changes. I think the punishment is for bringing us to a place of repentance, just like it did when we were alive in the body. Exactly how He does that we aren’t told and we would only be speculating. Jesus still purchases our salvation but those who die in unbelief will be dealt with harshly, but lovingly, and ultimately for the sake of redemption. Revelation talks about the “Kings of the earth” something like 7 times throughout the book and they are ALWAYS shown in a negative light, as those in rebellion toward God. Yet at the end, they are shown to be redeemed AFTER the second death.
Sonia wrote this about it:
To me the words Olam and Aionian bring to mind that which is distant, on the horizon, barely distinquishable. This is the way I view judgment and punishment of sin. It’s out there. I can see its outline on the horizon and it’s fearsome, terribly fearsome, but I trust in the One who is with me, who will be the judge.
The more I’ve studied the judgment passages, the more I’ve come to believe that they are meant to bring positive change in this life based on both the goodness and severity of God, like the goodness and severity of a loving perfect parent. If punishment is needed to accomplish in us good, then that punishment will be meeted out only as needed. Even more so though I believe that the fire of truth will purge us from all evil, produce in us a clean, repentive, humble heart. And those who have been forgiven the most, will love the most! And I’ve found that God’s unfailing love is woven like a thread of hope throughout the fearsome tapestry of judgment and punishment of sin.
Facing the unshaded truth of our lives will, well, bring us all to tears, tears of repentance and tears of thanks. We’ll see that God keeps reaching out, that our lives are so covered by the love of God that we can see nothing but His goodness! We’ll see all the times when He spoke to us His love, grace, wisdom, conviction and we turned from Him, or turned to Him. We’ll see all that God could have done through us, and all that God did do through us that we didn’t even realize. We’ll be freed from all deception, especially self-deception, freed to walk in truth, grace, and love.
I trust that there will be reconciliation, not only between us and God, but between us and one another, asking and recieving of forgiveness, and humbling of ourselves towards one another. It will be simultaneously more terrible than we can imagine and much better than we can imagine! Hurts so good!
I believe those who expect to see either a punishment or retribution . . .of any kind . . .you may understand the old covenant view of God, but you’re completely missing the point and power of grace.
Cool! Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out with that.
I’m confused on the “kings” passages. In Revelation, He speaks about the rightful “kings of the earth” ,as well as, the kings of the earth as we know them now, doesn’t He? Is He speaking of us, who are kings and priests unto Him, in Rev.21:24? Thanks so much! Peace!
Beautifully put, Sherman. Thank you!
Thank you, Nathan. I agree with you that it should not give us joy to see others endure the process of correction or purification. Is this what you mean? Are you saying that there is no accountability for sin at the judgment or that we should not enjoy watching others receive it?
I believe God is the same yesterday, today and forever. His covenants were always good. And, His correction always restorative. I don’t understand what you mean by “the old covenant view of God”. He has always been the same God, He promised He would save His people from the beginning and He follows through on that. He has always been full of grace. He has always corrected those He loves. And, all undergo correction. My understanding of UR is that there is the general belief that all are corrected, some in this age and some by the purifying fire (God) in the next age or ages. Am I confused about this point of UR doctrine? Thank you for helping me understand what UR doctrine is. I want to compare what the doctrines are to what the Bible says so, I’m trying to understand the doctrines the best I can. Thanks again! Blessings of peace and joy to you, Nathan!
Kelly,
You are primarily right. UR or as some of us call it EU does agree with your statement. There are members here who are what we call Ultra Universalists and don’t believe in post mortem punishement. But EU does. There may be variants of UR that I’m not aware of but I believe UR does.
Have you read Thomas Talbott’s book The Inescapable Love of God. If not, that’s the one I always recommend. Talbott is clever, easy to read and smart as a whip. He’s also a gentlemen and answers his emails. He’s truly a classy man.
He is very philosophical however, so that may be difficult for you if you don’t like philosophy. He gets deep into it but in my opinion, it’s eye openeing. He makes arguments from logic as to why people who reject God are never doing so freely. Overall it’s an excellent book and is, to me, the one to read like 3 times 
Gene