The Evangelical Universalist Forum

UR's..When was our names written in the book of of life?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Everyone

Hallelujah, I rejoice because my name is written in Heaven in the Lamb’s book of Life. The bible teaches that one must be "born again’ to enter or see the kingdom of God. When you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior your name is written in the book of life. So, when does this happen? Lets look into the word of God and find out:

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Now, what is the above verse saying? Apparently, these peoples names in this verse were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. So, therefore the opposite must be true for all the people who will accept Jesus as Lord and Savior…their names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

How is this possible for our names to be written in the book of life from the foundation of the world? Because God is omniscient ( among other attributes) and knows the beginning to the end. God knows all who will accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and records their names in the book of life before the creation of the world.

Now, Revelation 3:5 says "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Notice what this verse is saying; In other words, God can and will blot out a believers name out of the book of life if you don’t overcome. Rev 3:5 supports what Jesus was saying in Matthew 10:32 & Luke 12:8.

I have said all of that to say and ask this:

  1. Scripture has established we have to be born again spiritually and have our names written in the book of life to enter Heaven. Jn 3:3; Rev 20:15.

  2. Scripture has also established from the foundation of the world our names are written in the book of life. Rev 17:8

  3. Scripture has also established that God can and will blot your name out of the book of life if you don’t overcome. Rev 3:5.

  4. So, how is everyone’s names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world and enter Heaven…when Rev 17:8 says these particular people were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world? How do people enter Heaven when their names were not written in the book of life…when your name according to scripture can only be written in the book of life before the creation of the world?

Look forward to your biblical responses. :wink:

God bless,
Aaron

Corrective post.. When names are written in the Book of Life
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Challenge
Aaron37's Answer to Jason Pratt's challenge in Rev 21.
#2

OK. Christ said that everyone that His Father had given Him would be raised from the DEAD on the last day. So it’s the names of the resurrected. It is, after all, the book of LIFE.

Biblically, that’s everyone, Aaron.

And we know that resurrected is as resurrected does - namely, and irrevocably, confess Christ.

#3

Ran, those people who the Father has given Christ are born again believers, not unbelievers. Not all the resurrected are believers, Ran. The book of life contains all the names that were written before the creation of the world… the people who are born again and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior . Rev 17:8 & Rev 20:15 say there are people whose names that were not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world and all the people who are not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. No where in scripture does it record anyone’s names added to the book of life, but Rev 3:5 records believers names being blotted out for not overcoming.

So, your response did not answer my #4 questions at the end of my post. You did not address how the people who were not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world enter heaven when scripture clearly establishes that the names who are born again and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior are written in the book of life before the world was created. How do these people go to heaven when their names are not written in the book of life…when scripture establishes this is the only way?

#4

OK. So their names were in the book since the foundation of the world and then He starts erasing them.

Ah, Revelation, no wonder Luther (and others) wanted to toss that book out.

#5

I believe that Salvation is a process, and not a single event that occurs at any one instantaneous point in time. On the following pages of my website, I present my case:

heavenandhellpage.com/salvation.html
heavenandhellpage.com/faithworks.html

I believe that the terms “Heaven,” “Kingdom of Heaven,” “Kingdom of God” are concepts that are described in different ways throughout the Scriptures, depending on which aspect of the salvation experience that is being referred to. Often the language used to describe these concepts is metaphorical or figurative in nature, especially in the apocalyptic writings, which often took the form of visions and dreams. By the same token, I don’t believe that pictures of Heaven, the New Jerusalem, and the New Earth in the book of Revelation are meant to be taken literally. Most of the book of Revelation, as well as other apocalyptic books and scriptures, came to the writers in the form of visions and dreams. Even many fundamentalist Christians do not believe, for example, that the “lake of fire” in the Book of revelation should be taken “literally.” Most do not believe that sinners will be infinitely punished in literal flames, nor do they believe that Christians will necessarily spend all eternity in a huge, mile-high, square city. Even born-again Christians will face the metaphorical refining fires of God judgment after they die. I believe that, in the Bible, various descriptions of Heaven and the afterlife are idealized pictures which describe spiritual truths. I like to view Heaven and Hell as opposite ends of a continuum of sorts, and spiritual life and death as representative our degree of relationship, or non-relationship, with God.

I would view descriptions of the “Lamb’s Book of Life” in the same way. In many places throughout the Scriptures, the metaphor of names being written in Heaven, in a type of book, is used to describe how God keeps track of those who are “saved," either now or at some time in the future. I believe that this metaphor is not meant to be taken literally. Most fundamentalists, for example, don’t really believe that God actually writes names into a physical book with actual pen and ink, and then scratches them out, and so on. I would regard the imagery describing God’s entering and deleting names from a book in Heaven as representative of the concept that God keeps track of our actions and deeds on earth and holds us accountable. I am more comfortable with the view that God is able to keep track of these things without having to literally “write them down” in some kind of heavenly book.

Of course, this website focuses primarily, on the doctrine of “universal reconciliation.” Whether you view your conversion experience as occurring “instantaneously” or as a gracdual process, the end result, at the end of the ages, is the same for all.

#6

Aaron,

So you believe that names cannot be added, because they had to have been in the book before the foundation of the earth. But you do believe they can be blotted out for not overcoming. So, if what you say is true, why would God have put them in the book in the first place, if He knew they would eventually be blotted out and not saved in the end. This is absurd. What you are implying is that God decides in advance who He’s going to save and puts them into His book of life. Then decides later to take some of them out. Why not just put in the correct names to begin with?

No where in the Scriptures is the metaphor used of “re-entering” names into the Book of Life, but where is the need to phrase it in exactly that way? The Scriptures plainly teach that one day, all creation will be restored and every knee will bow. In my view, that pretty much says the same thing.

#7

Richard

Your response ( as was Rans) did not address my # 4 questions or my post in general. God has many books as described in Rev 20:12 " And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works".

So, I’m not going to get into all the books ( there all in scripture) but the books are real, not metaphors, Richard. Calling the Lamb’s book of life a metaphor… IMO… is a cop out to avoid answering my questions biblically.

God bless,
Aaron

#8

Richard

you said: So you believe that names cannot be added, because they had to have been in the book before the foundation of the earth. But you do believe they can be blotted out for not overcoming. So, if what you say is true, why would God have put them in the book in the first place, if He knew they would eventually be blotted out and not saved in the end. This is absurd. What you are implying is that God decides in advance who He’s going to save and puts them into His book of life. Then decides later to take some of them out. Why not just put in the correct names to begin with?

Aaron: I believe what has been established in scripture. God does not decide in advance for anyone’s salvation… He knows who will accept Jesus and will overcome to the end and records their names. God did put the correct names to begin with…All who are supposed to be written in the Lambs book of life are written there.

you said: No where in the Scriptures is the metaphor used of “re-entering” names into the Book of Life, but where is the need to phrase it in exactly that way? The Scriptures plainly teach that one day, all creation will be restored and every knee will bow. In my view, that pretty much says the same thing.

Aaron: Because it has been established in scripture that no one enters heaven unless your name is found in the Lamb’s boof of life. It also has been established in scripture not everyone’s name is written in the Lamb’s book of life recorded from the foundation of the world. Rev 17:8. Therefore, you are left with a huge problem, Richard. How do you explain biblically, how one gets their name added to the book of life when it is already been establish that all the names that will bow their knee in faith and overcome are recorded before the world was created…there is no record of names being added. Could it be possible that your interpretation of Phil 2:10-11and Col 1:20 is wrong?

God bless,
Aaron

#9

Ooooh! A REAL challenge! :smiling_imp: Nothing like those usual easy arguments to knock down. Alright! :mrgreen:

A couple thoughts popped into mind: perhaps it is only the book that is from the foundation of the world, and not the names? I think that’s the best refutation right there.

Secondly, maybe some peoples’ names are written there from the foundation of the world, but others won’t be until after certain developments have taken place?

I’d really like to hear Jason’s thoughts on this, he usually has a pretty good analysis. Also, where’s that Aramaic NT? It may shed some light on the interpretation of things.

#10

Right. And they are all written in pencil and He has a BIG eraser. Great.

It’s just another indication that Revelation (most of it, anyway) is not scripture. It’s not a book to build one’s theology around, i.e. it’s best ignored. Contradiction after contradiction. Babel for babel-lovers.

I’m with St. Paul - give me clarity.

#11

Justin

You have done what ( Ran, Richard) did before you…you did not address my #4 questions or my post in general with biblical responses.

you said: Ooooh! A REAL challenge! Nothing like those usual easy arguments to knock down. Alright!

Aaron: Ok, why are you not knocking them down with biblical responses like I requested?

you said: A couple thoughts popped into mind: perhaps it is only the book that is from the foundation of the world, and not the names? I think that’s the best refutation right there.

Aaron: Perhaps? Read Revelation 17:8 and 13:8 again, Justin. "Whos names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. It is very clear that both the book and the names that were not written in the book are before the creation of the world. Therefore, the opposite is true.

you said: Secondly, maybe some peoples’ names are written there from the foundation of the world, but others won’t be until after certain developments have taken place?

Aaron: There is no record of peoples names being added to the lamb’s book of life that was established before the creation of the world. Did you read all my OP?

you said: I’d really like to hear Jason’s thoughts on this, he usually has a pretty good analysis. Also, where’s that Aramaic NT? It may shed some light on the interpretation of things.

Aaron: Me too.

#12

Ran…Do you realize what you are doing? You are blaspheming God and you are in direct contradiction of 2 Timothy 3:16…all scripture is given by the inspiration of God. Don’t cop out with the book of Revelation is best ignored because you can’t answer my post scripturally. Shame on you, Ran, calling for the Word of God to be ignored and not true. If this is the best you can come up with…please let someone else respond. ( no offense).

#13

It has to BE scripture to start with. What a strange monkey you are. You know you are relying on the ‘wisdom’ of the organized and catholic church council of 637 (going from memory) to include the book largely on TRADITION or be thrown out with a bunch of other spurious books. Since then, it’s been nothing but trouble.

Hah! You are Catholic! All this ‘born-again’ stuff was just a ruse. I should have known. Still love ya, man. Quote the Rev, you Catholic dude!

I’m going to hell for not believing that Counsel’s Bible? Nice touch. I know you love tradition where it serves your purposes, but come on!

#14

Aaron,

Revelation was written after 2 Timothy.

I do respect the spirit and intent of the book and do believe that it was a genuine revelation from God to the Apostle, John. Huge theological conflicts and contradictions result, though, when one tries to interpret it too literally. Even if 2 Tim. did apply, all it says is the writers of the scriptures were inspired of God, and that statement itself can be understood to support many different views of inspiration.

#15

Richard & Ran

Please let other people respond. You guys have responded multiple times… You are hi-jacking this thread with comments that have nothing to do with the original post. Its obvious that you guys have nothing to offer but your opinions. Please stop responding. :blush:

God bless,
Aaron

#16

But your original post is based on your Catholic understanding and acceptance of the canon. I know you guys are into the tradition thing - even Luther had a hard time bucking it and throwing out the book - but, really Aaron, just raise your flag proudly and declare your support for the catholic council of 637. You’d be hugging those guys. Stand your ground, you’re such a good Catholic!

The Pope would be so proud of you. And he’s as infallible as you are. Silly peas in a pod. You infallible guys are such a trip!

#17

Nothing to offer but our opinions? Isn’t that the purpose of a discussion board? You are the one who messaged me and asked for my opinion.

But I will respect your wishes and stop responding.

Blessings,
Richard

#18

You’re cruising for it Ran.

Yes, A37 shouldn’t be throwing out blasphemy charges on this board (which we have constantly said is for technical discussion). Nevertheless, you started it this time. Rein in your temper and answer civilly, please. Or be gone and stop distracting from serious conversation.

#19

I’m trying to get him to see something. I wasn’t angry at him. And he has made claims of infallibility and even sinlessness. Just let things go, Jason. We’ll be fine. You have to understand that a ‘serious conversation’ includes questioning the contradictory nature of the source itself and thus, his premise.

#20

Aaron,
I missed the place where it says that names can only be written in the book of life before the creation of the world. Can you point me to that reference? And where does it say that names cannot be added?

Sonia