The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Was the Apostle Paul Gay?

Practices Christian Living
#21

Yeah, like Johnny said, here we go again… :unamused:

I can understand your frustration, bro… sometimes it seems as though it’s just good ol’ fashioned prejudice and bigoty that keeps a lot of people from accepting homosexuals or their desire to have meaningful relationships just as we straight people desire to, but then I know it’s often more complicated than that…

I know that there are those who hold up the Bible, or at least their interpretation of it, at a higher level of importance and authority than I do, and want to stick by that out of personal principle, or they look at the biological factors in homosexuality, or the family dynamics of gay marriage with kids, or whatever they may be thinking about, and see it as ‘unnatural’, and so just don’t understand how it could be a good thing.

Of course, sometimes it is simply prejudice and bigotry more than anything else in some cases, or maybe a little mixed in with what I mentioned above, or whatever else.

But whatever the case, I know that those who are against it have their reasons, whether good or bad, and I try not to judge them for that, even if I disagree.

The main reason I don’t have much of a problem with homosexuality is because I’ve gotten to know some homosexual people myself, heard their stories, gotten a sense of their struggles and their desire for acceptance, seen their value as people, and as friends. So my attitude, for that reason and a few others, is pretty open.

But focusing on the issue at hand, I agree with Dick about the apostle Paul… I doubt he was a homosexual (I kind of lean towards the poor eyesight hypothesis myself if it was some kind of physical ailment, but then Dick’s interpretation makes sense I think), and although I used to think that maybe being born homosexual is God’s way of saying that you should take the path of celibacy, I’ve come to realize that that’s just a crazy, not to mention cruel, idea.

One of my closest friends is a gay man, who is married to a woman. He married her many years ago in the hopes that he’d change somehow, would go straight. But it never happened, and no matter how much he prayed, how much he begged and pleaded with God to change him. My friend loves his wife dearly, he has always thought of her as his best friend, and he wishes he could be straight for her sake, but he just can’t.
He has no trouble being affectionate with her, being close to her, and he feels very comfortable with her, but sex… :neutral_face:
Amazingly, even though things were rocky early on, his wife has come to accept the situation, and so has he on some level. And they love each other as two souls, two people, even if they can’t make love physically because of my friend’s predicament.
So he is effectively celibate at this point, and so is his wife, even though they never asked for that (though no doubt few ask to be celibate).
They’re old enough now to where some of the fire has died down, but more importantly, their bond is too strong for them to even think of leaving one another over sex…

When I think of my friend’s situation, the whole ‘God makes you gay to push you into the path of celibacy’ argument just kind of falls apart, at least for me…

But I don’t know why my friend is in that situation, and neither does he. All I know is I feel bad for all the struggle he has had to go through, though I also think it’s beautiful that he and his wife are still together and still love each other and that they are soul mates even if they aren’t sexual partners.

And I think situations like that should give us some food for thought.

It’s easy to judge people whose shoes you’ve never been in, whose tears you’ve never cried, whose loneliness and confusion you’ve never felt. It’s far too easy…

I know that none of you here who are against homosexuality, for whatever reason, are bad people. I know that you live and love as best you can, just as I do.
I know that each and every one of you wants to be a good person, wants to stand for what’s right, wants to do what’s right.
And in your mind you just can’t see how homosexuality can be a good thing.

To be honest, I can’t seem to see a lot of good in it myself, for all the pain and heartache and confusion it causes in those who are homosexual or who love and care for those who are, and all of the hate and malice and inhumanity it brings from those who cannot accept its existence in this world.

But its there, so we have to face it, and how will we face it?

I have this theory, about life, something I was thinking about today.

A lot of people have tunnel vision, I’d even go so far as to say that we all do to some extent.
None of us can really see the big picture, see how everything fits together, none of us are omniscient, or at least not as far as I know, because I know I’m not omniscient.

Anyways, in this world there are so many voices, so many perspectives, so many truth claims and factoids, so many ways of looking at things, so many threads of this and that and the other, and how do we tie it all together?
We can’t. How can we, when we don’t even know everything there is to know (and even if we were to put all our heads together), let alone how to fit it all together?

There are those of us who try to figure out everything in the Bible, who think they can formulate some kind of theological theory of everything and get everything in life nailed down, as if the Bible was a textbook for life, or there are those of us who think they can figure out why God did this, or why God allows that; who think they can figure out why tornadoes wreck homes in Oklahoma, why people shoot defenseless kids in schools, like in Newtown, why people get sick, why people die, why animals or people tear each other apart, why people are born with deformities, with disabilities, or why people are born different from the norm, i.e. with a non-heterosexual orientation, and think they can figure out just what God is up to behind the scenes… and we all try to do that sometimes I think, we can’t help it, we just want to understand…

But I think the truth is there are a lot of unanswered questions, a lot of things in life that don’t seem to make sense, that bring pain and confusion, that break hearts and shatter hopes, and sometimes, we just don’t know what the hell is going on, if we’re honest enough to admit it.

Anyways, here’s my theory, which I admit is my own attempt at understanding, though not necessarily fitting everything together:

I wonder if the reason why life is so messy sometimes, why there are so many differences between people, like the color of our skin or our sexual orientation, etc, or why there are unanswered questions, or why the Bible is so confusing and confounding sometimes, or why the church is messed up in a lot of ways, or why the world is messed up in a lot of ways, or why there are so many voices and perspectives and threads that can’t all be tied together, is because God allows this to be how it is, or even makes it so, for some deeper reason…

And I think maybe the deeper reason is to challenge us, to challenge us to love one another, to accept one another, in spite of the mess of our lives and of ourselves, and despite our differences, to help one another and be there for one another in the face of unanswered questions, in the face of confusion and uncertainty, to find solidarity in our own brokenness and need for healing and hope, to find common ground in our humanity, in how none of us can see the big picture completely, can see the whole world, or the whole universe, and how it all fits together, but we can still be a part of the world, a part of the universe, and do some good in it, can leave some mark worth leaving before shuffling off to the next chapter, whatever that may be…

Of course this wouldn’t explain everything, even if it is true, but it’s just a thought, just a theory, though not a theory of everything by a long shot.

So how does this relate to homosexuality? I think it relates in this way:

Maybe God’s challenge to us as ‘normal’ straight people, being faced with those who are not ‘normal’ straight people, is to love and accept those who are different from us, to help them and be there for them in the face of their unanswered questions, their confusion and uncertainty, to find solidarity with them in our shared need for healing and hope (because don’t we all need that, in one way or another?), to find common ground with them in our shared humanity.

I think the same kind of challenge has been laid on people concerning issues of gender, race, class, religion, etc.

We humans have a knack for building up unhealthy walls of division between one another, forming unnecessary boundaries to keep others out, to keep others away, either away from us, and/or presumably away from God also.

But perhaps God is all about breaking those walls down? Perhaps God is all about widening the circle?

Perhaps God IS love?

I say all of this with the knowledge of my own weaknesses and shortcomings. I have often failed to love my neighbor, to care about those around me, to accept those who are different from me.
I have often failed the challenge, and I still do everyday, in one way or another.

But I’m a work in progress, and I want to keep trying to meet the challenge, because I believe that that is the challenge that is laid before me, the call to love and care for my neighbor. And who is my neighbor? Anyone and everyone.

And even if I can’t figure everything out about life and how everything fits together, I get the sense that focusing on learning how to relate to others, how to love, how to be a part of this world and this universe, is a good focus to have, and a worthwhile pursuit, and learning and growing in that perhaps may even be the key to our existence, may even be the reason why we’re here on this spinning blue marble in the first place.
Maybe learning how to love is ultimately more important than getting everything figured out…
May God help me in this, in learning how to love, and may God help us all…

Not sure if anything I’m saying is making any sense. If not, I apologize, and if so, that’s great, but whatever the case, may you be blessed, and hopefully this discussion doesn’t get too heated. :wink:

  • yet another awkward and haphazard follower of Jesus, Matt
#22

Hi Matt :smiley: - and I love the video :smiley:

#23

Hello mate :slight_smile: Good to hear :slight_smile: There’s a part two coming eventually :wink:

#24

Jolly good old boy - look forward to it (you come across so well :smiley: )

And here

:smiley:

I note that in blessing eunuchs Jesus was going against the taboo about eunuchs being polluted and hence not able to officiate in the temple.

#25

Throw Jesus’ touching and healing of lepers in there too while we’re at it :wink:

#26

Yes indeedy - at least those that quote other pasts of scripture at Christians who take a positive view of loving gay relationships should not doubt our sincerity in trying to follow Jesus. Well that’s what I think anyway.

#27

Aye :slight_smile:

Well, I better be off to bed, my friend, gotta try and get some sleep.

Blessings to you :slight_smile:

#28

I don’t think anyone was suggesting Paul was practicing those impulses (if he had them–and I don’t think there’s clear evidence he did); he clearly opposes them elsewhere.

However, the term “gay” would tend to indicate someone who was cheerfully accepting about their homosexuality, not fighting the impulses. In that sense even gay people shouldn’t argue on the evidence that Paul was “gay”, or even suggest it.

(Bishop Spong is a provocative nit, in other news, not that this is news. :wink: )

#29

If Paul had a homosexual or bisexual orientation, then this all the more would indicate that Paul distinguished same-sex desires and same-sex sexual relations in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

#30

Can of worms officially opened, then… :wink:

I’m not arguing for any position on Paul himself here. It was just a, “what if”?

#31

Thanks ever so. :unamused:

Bringing up the topic at all only tends to upset people, especially homosexual members (and especially when, for whatever reasons, they’re emotionally fragile).

Granted it would be nice to be able to have sober conservations about such topics, but past experience indicates otherwise. Which is one reason I tend to stay out of such threads.

(Also my position is such that practically no one anywhere is going to like it. :neutral_face: I’m already busy enough on the forum, so why borrow trouble and hard feelings?)

#32

Wise words, Jason. Please, people, try and remember that when we are discussing issues around homosexuality we are talking about real people, and their real life struggle to be accepted, to love and be loved - basic human rights, in other words. This is not theoretical doctrinal musing. This is proclaiming judgement on people’s lives - with potentially devastating consequences.

It is a shameful fact that gay people and their families have been driven away from this forum (and been caused considerable pain in the process) by the homophobic comments of some members. And to anybody who proposes to wheel out that tired, discredited canard that they aren’t homophobic themselves, they’re just obeying what the Bible teaches, I say bullshit. Telling gay people they are sinners is not only wrong, it is mean, cruel, anti-Christian, and anti the whole tenor of Christ’s teaching and example.

As our resident prophet Matt says, sometimes - all too often, if you ask me - it is indeed “just good ol’ fashioned prejudice and bigotry that keeps a lot of people from accepting homosexuals or their desire to have meaningful relationships”.

So next time somebody here feels it necessary to tell a fellow child of Christ they are sinning merely by expressing their God-given sexuality because they think that’s what the Bible teaches, I suggest they go and drop an extremely large stone on the head of the next friend or family member who has an extra-marital affair. And if they’re not prepared to do that they should bloody well keep their big mouth shut.

J

#33

Hi Johnny,

I want to make sure I clearly understand the implications of what you are saying in you last past in this thread. For example, from biblical grounds, I believe that all adulterous sex and all homosexual sex is morally wrong. Do you suppose that my expressing that on this board is homophobic or bigoted?

Peace,

Jim

#34

Hi Jim

Thanks for your question. I too think that adulterous sex is morally wrong - although I don’t need the Bible to tell me that :smiley: . I do not think homosexual sex is morally wrong, even though I accept that there are a very small number of Bible verses which, in certain translations, appear at first sight to condemn certain sexual behaviours which may include loving homosexual sex. And yes, I think that expressing a belief that homosexual sex is morally wrong - on the basis of such dubious scriptural evidence - is homophobic.

According to Wikipedia, “Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT).” Saying that having sex with the person you love is morally wrong is unequivocally the expression of a “negative attitude”, and hence, under this definition at least, homophobic.

Now one might argue that homophobia really means fear or hatred of gay people. I am not suggesting you personally are homophobic in that sense (although a lot of Christians are, sadly). But unfortunately there isn’t a word for 'loving gay people but thinking that it’s morally wrong for them to have sex". Indeed, the single word “homophobia” covers a very wide spectrum of attitudes and beliefs.

We make a very grave category error if we conflate gay sex with adultery. Just because the two things involve sex doesn’t mean that they are of a piece. Gay sex is the natural and loving fulfilment of something natural and sacred, the romantic love of one human being for another. Adultery is a hurtful and selfish deception, the betrayal of a sacred oath.

If God thinks it’s wrong for gay people to have sex, why didn’t he say so when he walked among us as Jesus, I wonder? The fact that Christ went out of his way to condemn adultery in no uncertain terms (along with all sorts of other selfish behaviours), and said not a single, solitary word about same sex relationships, is proof enough for me that the loving relationships I see in my gay friends and family members are blessed by God in the same way as the straight (for want of a better word :smiley: ) ones.

Peace to you too

Johnny

#35

Seems like you’re getting a bit riled, their Johnny Boy. :open_mouth:

I think it’s unfair to dismiss Ken’s comments as “just good ol’ fashioned prejudice and bigoty.” It may be that “Some of my best friends are gays”, but that doesn’t justify homosexual practice. In my opinion, Ken has indicated no prejudice whatever. He was simply sharing the facts as he saw them.

I’m getting pretty tired of people judging everyone who opposes the practice of homosexuality as “homophobes” and other such epithets. It is simply ludicrous to call people haters of homosexuals just because they do not agree with homosexual practice. If you disagree with some of the things your children do, does that imply that you hate your children?

Does anyone have the right to insist that they be respected, if their practices are regarded as immoral? How far can we take this? What if pedophiles call people who disagree with their practice “pedophobes”? What if bestialitists call people who disagree with their practice “bestiophobes”?

It’s time we got real on these matters and ceased erecting walls of opposition.

#36

I personally don’t think that Christians who think that homosexual acts are wrong – like adultery is wrong – are necessarily homophobic. Homophobia is all about ignorance, stereotyping and hatred. A Christian with a high view of biblical authority can think that homosexual acts are wrong, but still be compassionate towards homosexual people and be aware that cut and dried answers often are false ones. For example the current Archbishop of Canterbury who is an evangelical is against gay marriage, probably thinks that homosexuality is sinful, but is aware of the high quality of love that he has found in some gay relationships. So I wouldn’t call him homophobic – because he is true to his convictions but still open to the stranger and the outsider. So yes, it is completely possible to be against homosexual activity but not homophobic.

Piaidon – we don’t/wouldn’t allow paedophiles on this site. But I know that there are several people who are gay who use this site. It’s not people stating that they disagree with homosexual acts that worries me it’s the vehemence that can come with it; because I know that in least one case the effects have been to cause great distress and disorientation.

#37

And their numbers are dwindling fast, Dick :frowning: . The hurt caused to gay people here is a disgrace. And compounding it by making albeit roundabout but utterly spurious comparisons with paedophilia and bestiality is beyond contemptuous. We don’t drag paedophilia into discussions about the sinfulness of gluttony, so why do so here?

#38

Yes Johnny - of course I’d agree that comparisons between homosexuality and paedophilia and bestiality are, in my view, completely beyond the pale. Absolutely.

#39

My comments were not meant to be a comparison in the sense that any one of these practices is just as bad as either of the others.

These comments were meant to illustrate how ludicrous is the charge by many homosexuals and their supporters that anyone who disagrees with homosexual practice is a “homophobe”.

#40

There is a good percentage of hetrosexual couples who are married and don’t want children or have children. Would that mean their love is any less?