The Evangelical Universalist Forum

We Need Help Crafting Questions for "thehellquestions.com"

Evangelical Universalism
#1

We would like to ask your help with the following…!

From our website godslovewins.com we are going to take “The Questions” (these are questions FOR the reader) and place them onto a separate blog called thehellquestions.com. Currently we have 150+questions in 27 categories. We would like to present one question from each category to start the blog.

Right now we have too many for the beginner and it is too overwhelming – we would like to start out with some foundational questions which could begin to challenge the readers “faith” in ECT so that they will continue to investigate.

I have observed the level of skill in communicating the arguments for UR here to be outstanding. You guys are brilliant! You wield your Biblical knowledge, logic, and commonsense so winsomely in defense of UR. I find myself constantly wishing I could say it so well! I would like to craft the questions in a more gripping and engaging way than we have so far done…Would you be willing to channel some of your gifts and persuasive energy our way?! :slight_smile:

Could you all help us hone perhaps 25-30 “killer” questions for the site? We’d love to hear your best questions for the ECT believer or you can help us rephrase our questions (one or so from each category) for more clarity and impact. Here are the categories and if you need ideas our questions are here: godslovewins.com/thequestions.htm

The Categories:

  1. God’s name (example: “How is it that not a single name of God depicts an Eternal Torturer?”)
  2. God’s name as Savior
  3. The love of God
  4. Regarding Reconciliation and Restoration
  5. Regarding the OT concept of “Hell”
  6. Regarding the word “Hell”
  7. Hell in regard to God’s holiness
  8. Regarding salvation and forgiveness
  9. God’s track record
  10. ECT in relation to Dualism
  11. In relation to the law of God
  12. Regarding logic, reason and questions
  13. Regarding our God-given desires and hopes
  14. Regarding story
  15. God as Father
  16. The “firstfruits” “elect” and “priests”
  17. The judgments and wrath of God
  18. Death and destruction
  19. Regarding the meaning of true justice
  20. Regarding the atonment/its purpose and scope
  21. Regarding the present condition of the Church
  22. Regarding Matthew 25
  23. Calvinism vs Arminianism
  24. Questions for Calvinists
  25. Questions for Arminians
  26. The nature of Heaven and the Kingdom of God
  27. Regarding Church history

The list above are just topics we tried to cover and just ideas. So just shoot us your best question!
Thank you… :exclamation:
“phillip”… for godslovewins.com

#2

Looking (skimming) through your questions, it looks to me more like questions that come from a UR perspective rather than a “seeker” or “doubter” perspective. I haven’t seen your materials of course, but my questions when looking into UR were more along the lines of:

How can God save everyone when He has given everyone a free will? Does free will count for anything if He has intended all along to violate it in the end?

What about the wheat and the tares? Burning up the tares sure looks final to me.

Strongs defines aion/aionios as eternal. How do you know that’s wrong?

Wouldn’t it be a false conversion if a person were “saved” from within hell? I mean, they’re being tortured. They’re just seeking release, and probably can’t be truly repentant in a situation like that.

What about the sheep and the goats? Jesus seems pretty clear that the goats go off into eternal punishment and the sheep to eternal life. If the eternal punishment doesn’t last forever, what about the eternal life?

What about 2 Thessalonians1:8? Eternal destruction away from the face of the Lord? (RSV, more or less) What does that mean if not ECT, or at least separation from all that is good?

Where is God’s justice if not even the worst sinners will be punished for the harm they’ve done to others? How can God just let that slide? And what about THEIR free will? How could they even desire God, being what and who they are?

These are obviously from the perspective of someone who knows only the little hints of UR available through popular culture, but that’s where I was. I certainly wasn’t up to asking the sorts of questions you’ve posted. Maybe you address all these questions in your material, but even if you do, I’d include some of this sort of basic stuff. People don’t always listen, and often miss things that are too hard for them to hear. Seeing it in a different format (such as the Q/A section would be) and/or several times can help a lot.

Blessings, Cindy

#3

Cool, I’ll try to take a good look over the next few days :sunglasses:

#4

Those are great questions, Cindy. Far above the level of silly questions from those who have no clue and seem to be trying to test you. I applaud the honesty of your search when you were looking into the matter. :smiley:

But I think that Philip must’ve more or less been talking about rhetorical or probing questions, not questions that people may have like in a FAQ. I thought that, too, just judging from his post. So in that case, questions from a UR perspective is kinda the point, heh. But it wouldn’t hurt to feature some of yours, either!

And as for your questions, Philip, I think they are really quite good and thought-provoking! :smiley:

#5

You’re right, Stellar, and I should have said that as well. They ARE great questions. I just figured the questions were supposed to be for newbies. (And thanks for your kind words.) The questions Phillip posted would be excellent questions for us to discuss here. :slight_smile:

Blessings, Bro

Cindy

#6

Sorry folks, I’ve been gone all day and didn’t realize I was not clear.

But thanks for the questions Cindy. Those were awesome ones to consider as people will be certainly asking those particular questions. I am presently helping launch christianuniversalism.com and we WILL be answering the skeptics questions there. Those definitely need to be addressed for the newcomers unable to see the overall picture and zeroing in on the particulars. So I really appreciate you taking the time to post those questions here. I have copied them into my “Questions for US” folder!

But thehellquestions.com will be for those who believe that Chan and Galli etc., have answered all the “good questions” and thus have dismissed the debate as settled.

Jesus asked a lot of questions and so did many great teachers. We wanted to focus on the ones that get people moving into the direction of seeing that the position of ECT just doesn’t add up Scripturally, morally, or logically etc.,

That’s how I was confronted the first time with 100 questions that forced me to put it all together (while taking ECT all apart!) and step back and give it a big MAYBE. That was 6 years ago. So probing and diagnostic questions were a huge influence on my thinking. I also have used questions to bring several of my friends around to thinking about and embracing UR.

S**o I was hoping to get your ideas on some of the clincher questions that brought you all to UR. **I want to start with the strongest as sample questions so as not to lose them at the beginning.

Thank you all for your help!
phillip

#7

I think the questions you have are good.

For what it’s worth, here’s what I wrote to my new minister to try to make him at least think about the issues:

Others you could ask:
]Doesn’t God deserve everyone to lovingly worship Him?/]

]Why did God create Adam & Eve? Wouldn’t it be good if Adam & Eve one day actually lived again as God intended? Why doesn’t God persevere until that happens?/]

]In ECT/P people still hate God (which is sin). Why would God continue to sustain sinners sinning, rather than work to convert them?/]

]Isn’t God’s ability to reveal the truth (that a relationship with Him is far better than Hell), greater than our ability to deceive ourselves? I think this is where Lewis got it wrong in TGD, darkness (our ability to self-deceive) can’t hold back light (His ability to reveal the truth)./]

#8

Thank you Alex, that is exactly what I was asking: What are the questions that brought you to believe in UR and how would you express them? I think hearing them phrased differently than I would is very helpful to anticipate the various places people are coming from. Sometimes a person can ask something in a way that is heard by one and not another. So I appreciate all the angles people present as they form questions over this issue.

And there are questions that I have not even thought of. So please share with us the questions that moved you to UR or in helping others to consider it.

Alex, I like the way you so clearly and succinctly asked:

Thanks for your input!

#9

How is it that God promised Abraham a multitude of children as the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky, but Jesus said narrow is the gate and difficult the way and few are they that find it? There’s something here I’m not understanding.

Why did God create all these wonderfully talented people only to lose nearly all of them to hell? How can He stand it?

If each of us bears at least a part of the image of God, does He lose that part of His image when one chooses to reject Him and go to hell? So many reject Him. How can this be His plan?

How can the redeemed possibly be happy in heaven, knowing their loved ones are suffering in hell, or have been annihilated?

Think of a young msm woman who dies in childbirth; a slave to the men in her life, never having had a chance to know Jesus. Doesn’t it seem incredibly sad that her life should be snuffed out or prolonged in ect forever after such a short and tragic life on earth? God is just, and this is so very, very unjust. How can this picture be accurate?

Why do some have so many opportunities to know God and others so very few (and often worthless) opportunities? How is it just that I’ve been so blessed when others have never heard His name? Sure, they can be faithful to the light they’ve been given, but that’s a very iffy proposition and certainly not as generous as the knowledge of Him that so many of us have been made privy to.

Just a few of the things that were going through my mind . . .

#10

Those were excellent Cindy. It’s so helpful to hear questions from another’s point of view and from their own unique circumstances. I was a Calvinist for over 30 years so I feel like I was kind of in its doctrinal bubble. Therefore I see some of the arguments a lot differently. There are things I totally take for granted that others really have to struggle through, like the free-will issue.

I want the questions to be well-rounded so thanks again, that was very helpful.

#11

:slight_smile:

#12

Good questions Cindy, even some I hadn’t come across before :sunglasses:

#13

Greek, Roman, Babylonian and Egyptian myths often speak of the torments of hell, but this concept is found nowhere in the OT. Why is that?

The prophets went to great lengths to warn Israel of earthly disasters that would come if they were unfaithful to God, but they failed to warn them about the infinitely more serious disaster of everlasting hell. Why is that?

If everlasting hell is but a breath away from all unbelievers, doesn’t God have a duty of care to warn us in absolutely unambiguous terms of this impending disaster?

No one in their right mind would choose hell over heaven. If they’re not in their right mind, how can they be held responsible for their choices?

If universalism is an elementary theological error, wouldn’t it be impossible for any serious Christian thinker to believe it? Yet some of the greatest Greek-speaking theologians in the early church were outspoken universalists. Karl Barth (seen by many as the greatest Protestant theologian of the 20th century), von Balthasar (seen by many as the greatest Catholic theologian of the 20th century) and Alvin Plantinga (seen by many as the greatest living Christian philosopher) are all hopeful universalists.

#14

Hey thanks Allan, those were sharp and probing questions. I did ask the question about the absence of hell in the OT but didn’t unpack it much. Thanks for adding context. (I have really been appreciating your comments here on the forum btw, I always find them to be insightful and winsome.)

How would phrase that for a Calvinist who would say that it’s not a matter of choosing hell but their sinful fallen heart choosing evil/to rebel against God and therefore God sends them to hell, against their will?

Also a Calvinist would say that even if God sent everyone to hell forever He would be just and fair because all deserve it for their sin. To save anyone at all is the real astounding thing about His mercy, so goes the Calvinist rhetoric (not too many verbalize this but I have been told this/read this and it is what they are supposed to believe and say. However most Calvinists just parrot Lewis and say that God just gives us what we want, “an eternal bad mood” an “eternal grudge against God”.)

#15

If God (for his own inscrutable reasons) chooses you today, why are you so sure he won’t reject you tomorrow? (God chose Saul to be king, then rejected him.)

Who is more worthy of our deepest love and trust? A God who can save all, and does. Or a God who can save all, but doesn’t.

If God can save all, but doesn’t, why are you so sure he will save you? (Many will say “Lord! Lord!”)

God didn’t have to create grandma, but he did. God can save grandma, but he doesn’t. By choosing not to save her, God dooms grandma to everlasting torment. How is it possible to love this sort of God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength?

Before creation, no one was in pain. After creation, multitudes will be in everlasting pain. Would you call this a success? How can this sort of God (the creator is responsible for his creation) be worthy of our deepest praise?

#16

To expand on this, to be absolutely clear, they would’ve needed to use aidios instead of aionios (which clearly has a much greater semantic range e.g. from Plato’s “timelessness”, to the LXX’s “finitely ancient”)

#17

Thanks again Allan and Alex, these are very helpful. Keep them coming please!

Alex, is that like the word that Justinian had to place before the word “aionios” when he made his declarations against Origen in order to make himself clear that he meant “eternal” ? (since he realized that “aionios” did not carry the meaning of eternal in any absolute sense of the word?)

#18

No, according to what I’ve read, Justinian used “ateleutetos”. I’ve just emailed David Konstan for clarification.

#19

Thanks Alex, and I saw the new thread on this you started. Do you think you could give some more background to it?

#20

Cool, I hoped you’d see that :slight_smile: Unfortunately that’s all the detail I can recall, although I remember “All Shall Be Well” has a chapter on Origen’s universalism, and think it looks at Justinian’s condemnation (also Robin talks about it in the Introduction - I highly recommend reading it, if you haven’t already done so).