The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What about Osama or Hitler?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

One of the most frequent objections to UR is couched in questions regarding the fate of especially evil people who have committed atrocities against other humans. If UR is true then does that mean Hitler/Osama gets into heaven?

Usually, if not always, the person asking such a question is already a believer, a Christian. Thus I often reply asking them a question, “Well, let me ask you; if Hitler, seeing all that he built collapse around him, knowing his days were over, remembered the prayers of his mother and the words of forgiveness in scripture he read as a child, repented and turned to God asking for forgiveness, moments before the bombs fell and killed him, would he be forgiven and go to heaven?”

And if Osama, moments before he was killed, happened to recall the Gospel he heard from some Christian he met in college, and the lights came on and he understood the love and forgiveness of God, was broken and repented, but then was killed, would he be forgiven and go to heaven?

Paul wrote, “And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.”

Saul, in many ways the Osama of his generation, did not die at the hands of the Romans, but did “die” through encountering our risen Lord Jesus. Saul experienced the judgment of the Lord and was changed, delivered from evil, and set on a path of loving service for God and others. He encountered the Truth and the Truth, well, burnt the hell out of him and changed him forever! Saul even changed his name to Paul.

So the issue is not how much a person has sinned, but how much do we trust in the forgiveness and love of God, not only for ourselves, but for others also.

#2

fully agree, mate.

i think for many it’s the “need” for “justice” (or as i like to call it: “vengeance”) which causes people to start asking questions like these.
from the point of view of the victims, i can fully understand them under God’s altar saying “how long til you avenge us, oh Lord?”
i think that their hurt must be addressed. but God in His Wisdom knows that forgiveness is the only way to really heal. not to mention the restoration of lost loved ones. if we add to that the fact that each human carries a measure of guilt…once we know fully, as we are known, i doubt we will be so quick to judge others. there will be nothing left to “prove” of our own relative goodness compared to another.
i look forward to the reconciliation of all history’s monsters, to name a few: George Bush, Osama, Stalin, Antiochus Epiphane, Caligula, Nero, Augustine, John Calvin with all the victims or people they/we have damaged.

heck, if i can be saved…so can they!
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

#3

Because they aren’t really conservatives, the Bushes aren’t my favorite presidents. Nevertheless, I don’t think it’s accurate or just to lump either of them in with the great monsters of history.

However, back to the subject – the big thing for me with the “monsters” of the world is that they may repent (as Sherman postulates) while their (relatively) innocent victims may not. So we have Hitler in heaven and a whole crowd of Jewish non-Christians in hell. How is that just?

Or if you prefer, George Bush in heaven and a bunch of innocent (relatively speaking) Muslim civilians in hell. Doesn’t work, whatever your politics may be. Both Bushes and also Hitler self-profess(ed) themselves to be Christians and who are we to say them nay? How do we know? Grace of God and all – we’re all sinners saved by grace and there but for the grace of God go I. What’s more, Hitler was most likely insane – so was he even responsible for his actions?

So to those who say, “What about Idi Amin? What about Kim Jung Il?” I say "What about the Jewish civilians Hitler caused to be slaughtered? What about the many non-believing civilians Bin Laden caused to be slaughtered? Il and Amin had time to repent, but did their victims have that same luxury? In many cases, no – they did not.

Those who demand a pre-death recitation of the sinners’ prayer are condemning the relatively innocent victims right along with their monstrous murderers. That just doesn’t work.

Blessings, Cindy

#4

i think it’s perfectly appropriate. we could add Tony Blair to that list, though he was more of a toady.

i agree though.
but personally i think we have as long as we need in that moment before death. God isn’t bound by time and can show us everything He needs to in an instant.
so the victims, if they need that, could have that time to reflect…
but i seriously think that in most cases, there will be a knowledge of guilt before this wondrous being, when they see Him…monster or victim…and when He opens His arms and embraces them saying “this is my child who was dead and is alive!! throw a feast!” they will be overwhelmed and fall in love with Him right there

#5

Great topic!
Has anyone else seen a video put out by UCB (Universal Christian Broadcasters) called 180 degree turn? Its a graphic attempt at questioning young folk on the street using some graphic footage about the Jewish holocaust and then going on to the medical abortion issue in an attempt at getting them to convert. It came to us as a DVD with some Bible reading notes. They must have heard of my Universalism? One of the depictions was of people being shot and of one man pleading with his murderers to do a better job and shoot him again so as to put him out of his misery. So I wrote to them and suggested that perhaps they may like to take their graphic presentation a step further and consider that this man being a Jew would according to thIer understanding be thus translated from the misery of dying to eternal misery. I received a reply to my email which affirmed the traditional orthodox view. I don’t think they got my point at all that the depictions they were affirming made God infinitely worse than Hitler. The traditions of men are hard to overcome!

#6

Osama or Hitler or any of the tyrants history is riddled with. As a Universalist I believe “Love Wins” (great book by the way) but I am also glad I can leave it to God to give salvation and justice both. I don’t expect to entirely understand how He will do this while I am in this life.

The saddest thing I ever encountered while nursing was a concentration camp survivor. He had dementia and kept pulling out his IVs, catheters, etc. In his memory, he was still in the camp. Fortunately the local churches rallied so someone was always with him so thank God we did not need to use restraints. I recall praying God would call him Home. Yes, I am glad that part of Universal salvation can be left to God.

#7

Keith DeRose, in Universalism and the Bible pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm), offers the following (emphases mine) …

*Many have e-mailed to warn me of the dangers of believing and promoting [Evangelical] universalism. Two closely related dangers have been stressed. Some focus on how important Christians will think it is to spread the gospel if they accept universalism, and warn that belief in universalism would undercut evangelism. Others focus on the potential detrimental effect of promoting universalism on potential Christians themselves, supposing many will think something along the lines of, “Well, I’ll be OK anyway, so why bother to accept Christ?”

I do not think that belief in universalism should have the above effects. Here it is important to note that universalism – at least the position I’ve been referring to by the term – does not imply that it is unimportant whether one accepts Christ in this life, or sooner rather than later. All that universalism per se rules out here is the “infinitely big stick”: that one will be eternally barred from heaven (and perhaps consigned to hell) if one fails to accept Christ in this life. As I’ve stressed, universalism itself does not rule out that there will be punishment for some after death. Indeed, it does not rule out that there will be a lot of punishment for some. So it’s not only consistent with the existence of sticks, but with very big – indeed, immensely huge – sticks, though of course universalists will disagree amongst themselves about the nature and size of whatever sticks there are. Universalism does rule out the infinitely big stick. But it would indeed be very sad if Christians believed that there is strong reason or motivation for accepting Christ in this life only if one faces an infinitely big stick if one fails to do so. Universalism also guarantees that all humans will eventually attain the tremendous carrot. But does the fact that things will eventually be OK for someone remove the motivation – for herself and for others – to improve her lot in the meantime? Those who believe they are going to heaven, whether they’re universalists or not, believe everything will eventually be OK for them, but few lose all interest in their well-being in the meantime. And those who believe that certain other people (say, loved ones) are destined for heaven don’t lose interest in promoting their well-being in the meantime. Why, then, should accepting that everyone will eventually be OK sap all motivation for promoting their well-being in the meantime – especially since it’s at least consistent with universalism that that “meantime” can be a very long time?

It’s also worth pointing out that though the universalist believes all will attain heaven, it’s consistent with universalism that what one’s heavenly existence is like may depend on one’s earthly life. Thus the universalist may hold (though perhaps some will not) that how one lives one’s earthly life – perhaps crucially including whether one accepts Christ in this life – will have eternal significance, even if it doesn’t determine whether one (eventually at least) attains heaven. *

I agree. I think the most likely scenario is that (a) Osama and Hitler have an enormous amount of wrath awaiting them before they are ultimately saved and (b) their heavenly life will be of relatively low quality (i.e. few rewards), at least in the beginning.

#8

Great quote, Quest. Thanks for sharing it! :slight_smile:

#9

I think that this topic is a hugely important challenge for Christians and their sense of God’s grace. One of the most challenging things for me were the conversions of Jeffrey Dahmer and David Berkowitz. From a Christian perspective, I am grateful that the light of Christ is able to shine in the sheer darkness of their lives and deliver them from evil but as a non-universalist, I am too painfully aware of the fact that their victims may not have received the same chance of repentance that they received and it really challenges my sense of grace for these guys. I know the argument could be posited that their victims would have died in any case at the time that they did, but I have to admit it does not sit well with me. The only thing that I hope in is the might of God to deal with those victims, knowing His love for them and His sorrow for their earthly fate and His grace and His mercy. But if I’m honest, I always have to try and remember to give thanks that God reached both Dahmer and Berkowitz, and hope in His mercy for their victims.