I would tend to agree with you on all of that. The distinction between our viewpoints, IMO, may lie in our view of evangelism and soteriology. I will qualify that to add that I have been very influenced by Peter Rollins’ Insurrection, in so much that my concept of God, as any bit seeming like a Deus ex machina is dying, and it is through only the teachings of the Son through which I wish to live.
Hi Eric, if you speak from a traditional Aminian or Calvinistic ECT point of view, yes, what you believe and what UR affirms concerning salvation (soteriology) and evangelism is radically different.
For the Calvnist, salvation was accomplished on the cross for some people and evangelism is about sharing this “Good News for Some People”. Good news for some but bad news for most.
For the Arminianist, salvation was not accomplished completely on the Cross for anyone but was made available to be chosen by Some people. And thus evangelism is about sharing the possibility of being saved to as many people as will choose. So it is “good news for some but bad news for most”.
For the Universalist, salvation was accomplished completely on the Cross for all humanity resulting ultimately in the reconciliation of all creation. Evangelism is about declaring this Good News for All Humanity so that all might ultimately believe and repent and participate in the present and increasing Kingdom of God. God reconciling all to Himself is truly Good News for everyone and bad news to none.
Please allow me to throw some emphases in your great quote there…
Absolutely! And for the Universalist, this Good News is so ineffably wonderful that we are driven from the depth of our souls to shout it from the rooftops* right now*! Many Calvinists and Arminians assert that the reconciled, redeemed life starts here and now, but I feel it has a deeper and richer meaning to we Universalists, hence we calling ourselves, “Evangelical” Universalists!
The most glorious thing God has ever done is to die to save us sinners. So then. What did God value most? People, or his own glory? But if we are his glory, the question becomes meaningless.
“The glory of God is a man fully alive.” St Irenaeus
Hey Allan,
Yes but grace is something we don’t deserve. Therefore it’s not based at bottom on our worth. Grace is God centered. Grace empowers us to enjoy making much of God. I do believe now that God is not only glorified by His grace but by His justice as well. I believe that it’s not only punitive but corrective as well. So, on judgment day we will be rejoicing as God pours out His wrath for it will be to purify and bring everyone to salvation.
love that St Iraneus quote, AllanS!
Michael, i think our glory is tainted while we are sinners, but when we are reconciled to God, we regain the glory He intended us to have at the beginning…
and then the relationship between the bride of Christ and Christ Himself can be a healthy relationship where each party is able to glorify the other.
i agree that at this present time, in this present evil age, we are not glorious beings at all, and God’s glory is greater. but He made us in His image, and one day that Image will shine forth…no longer like from a mirror darkly.
Corpselight,
I agree that there is glory that God shares with us as we are being transformed from glory to glory. But I also believe there is a glory that only God has that He doesn’t share. He alone is God and there is no other. We as creatures will never be like God in every way.
God is love. Love is not self-seeking. Love is humble. Love’s focus is never on itself, but always on the other. This is the glory of God.
Hey Allan,
While God is love it’s a Holy love. For the Bible says God is Holy, Holy, Holy. Holiness when applied to God refers to everything that sets God apart from His creatures and creation. God’s love is no mere human love. While there are ways we are to be like God there are also ways we are not to be like God. We cannot be like God in every way. Everything about God is Holy. Even His wrath (hatred). In the end God will be glorified by His (punitive/corrective) justice as well as His grace. Those in hell will be purified under God’s Holy hatred (justice). Glory is the revealed splendor and beauty of all of God’s perfections.
Self-obsession is evil. Egoists, megalomaniacs, tyrants, the devil himself can think of nothing but their own glory.
When Jesus prayed that God would glorify him, he was asking for strength to endure the cross, and he went to the cross because more than anything else the world needed to see the selfless love (the glory) of God.
It is vanity for us to find our deepest joy by looking in the mirror. But we are not God you see. Satan wanted to be like God in every way. This led to pride and arrogance. There is only One God. God glorifies Himself for the joy of His people. That’s love. Pride is loving and thinking of yourself more Highly than you ought to. God doesn’t do this. His loving and thinking of Himself is in direct proportion to who He is - the Greatest and most glorious of all Beings. He loves His own image so much that He is transforming EVERBODY into that very image. Which is first and foremost His humility and holiness.
The Father desires the glory of the Son. The Son desires the glory of the Father. Both desire the glory of Man. And our joy will be to glorify God.
2Cor 3:18
And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His {very own} image in ever increasing splendor {and} from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.
from wikipedia:
Glory (from the Latin gloria, “fame, renown”) is used to denote the manifestation of God’s presence in the Christian religious tradition. God’s glory is often associated with visible displays of light, e.g. thunderbolts, fire, brightness.
Divine glory is an important motif throughout Christian theology, where God is regarded as the most glorious being. Since they are created in the Image of God, human beings can share or participate in divine glory as image-bearers. Like a mirror, the human person reflects God’s glory, though imperfectly. (Thus Christians are instructed to “let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”)
ok, so if that’s the definition we’re working from, fame and reknown require another party to exist. i can glorify God, the persons of God can glorify each other, etc, etc.
so glorifying someone could be a way of expressing love, ie i love God, therefore i try to increase His renown. God could work to improve His reputation among people by mighty acts of salvation and judgement.
now, here’s where i think some schools of thought could differ on this. a traditional non Universalist view could say that God is glorified in His judgement and salvation, and that a permanent form of judgement (involving separation, torment, fire, emptiness or just annihilation) brings Him glory. but a person with a perhaps more empathetic and compassionate point of view might say that no…to punish forever someone who has sinned in a finite sense couldn’t increase His renown. eventually, the compassionate heart would be moved to say “Lord, no more! they’ve suffered enough!” and become bitter and sorrowful against God, and cease to glorify Him under those circumstances if God refused to listen and continued to pour out wrath on the sinner.
however, God could increase His renown through mercy, or through a judgement that was fair and actually solved the problem upon which the judgement rests.
ie, i have a child. that child is killed by someone. i, in my sorrow, demand justice. God punishes the killer, and restores my child to me…
now at this point, if i were to insist on permanent judgement upon the killer, Jesus might remind me of the parable of the faithless servant, the one that didn’t forgive the debt he was owed after being forgiven one himself. if i repented of my unforgiveness, God’s glory will be increased because His judgement could be turned into a restored relationship…not only i and my child restored together, but the killer transformed from an enemy into a friend.
such an end would be a total reversal of the hurts of the past, and all three of us would glorify God forever.
any other outcome would result in an infinite loop of unforgiveness, a distinctly Godless attitude. it would not glorify God.