The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What Do You Value Most - People or God's Glory?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

What Do You Value Most? People Or God’s Glory?

  • God’s Glory
  • People
  • Both Are Equal

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I’ve been thinking this over and I could be wrong but it seems to me that Universalism wants to place people on the same level as God. People are being valued at the risk of belittling the infinite worth of God’s glory. When we belittle the infinite worth of God’s glory we sin and therefore deserve God’s infinite justice. This is why the cross and Christ is so important. Christ is of infinite value and worth. Therefore, His death was sufficient to swallow up all infinities of punishment that are due me. My faith is in Christ and I am united to Him in a mystical union. My sins were imputed to Him at the cross as I was crucified with Christ and the old self was mortified. The new self is resurrected with Christ as His righteousness is then imputed to me as I am still united to Him in His resurrection. The wrath of God was removed from my vision as the veil was torn in two. I can now, with an unveiled face, behold the beauty of Christ (glory). God doesn’t delight in the perishing of the wicked in and of itself. What He takes delight in is His perfect glorious justice. Not everyone recieves the same degree of punishment in hell. Just as not everyone recieves the same rewards in heaven. But it seems to me that we are belittling the infinite worth of God’s glory when we do away with infinite justice. Again, I could be wrong though.

#2

both are inextricably linked.

God made people, knowing we’d mess up. if He punished eternally, His glory would be impuned: He would be an unreasonable tyrant. a tyrant has no glory.

but if we are forgiven much, we will love much, and God’s glory will be exalted.

also, what is God’s glory? His general shineyness? i would say that His glory relates to the whole story of His character and how He deals with us, His creation.

love is glorified by overcoming evil…not with vengeance, but with forgiveness. God is love.

i see no conflict. if God does not love His children, and provide forgiveness and restoration to ALL (not a mythical exclusive “elect”), then He becomes a respecter of persons. this we know He is not. He must discipline, but the Bible clearly says it’s only those that He loves that He chastens.

also, infinite justice would require that finite sins be punished in finite terms. no human has ever sinned “infinitely”. we would have to be omnipotent to do so, and probably omniscient and omnipresent as well.
that either means He hates the “elect”(!) as He’s chosen not to punish them, or that He loves the reprobate, and intends good for them too…and that good could only be total restoration of fellowship between Him, them, and everyone else.

this is what God’s glory is…people restored to newness of life and relationship with Him!

#3

God’s glory is the revealed beauty and worth of His manifold perfections.

God made us responsible agents. When we belittle the infinite worth of God’s glory it’s our own doing and therefore deserve infinite justice.

God is Holy, Holy, Holy. So, while God is love it’s a Holy love. This is no mere human love. Likewise His justice is holy as well.

God disciplines His children and He shows common graces to everyone. But there is comming a time when that will be over and God’s Holy Punitive Justice (Holy Hatred) will be poured out.

#4

no, the justice is already happening. but not a single person has sinned to the point of earning punishment beyond death. the wages of sin are death, NOT damnation.
God’s glory is not shown through eternal separation. rather, the real glory of God as love is shown in Him overcoming all the evil we had to attack Him with. this happened already, in Christ. and did He rise from the dead in a blaze of vengeance? no…He planted His kingdon: the kingdom of love and peace.
restoration shows a greater kingship than punishment does.

we all belittle His glory, every day. so does a child belittle its parents. it doesn’t understand, so it can’t really be blamed…God is a patient and loving parent to all His creation. discipline must happen, but it is always used to train and develop, not curse eternally.
there is no eternal punishment in the Bible. nowhere in the old testament is it promised, and the apparent new testament references are weakened if not outright disproved by the vague nature of “aionios”, when less vague words were readily available to the writers.

#5

Well Romans 9 tells us that God is glorified by His wrath as well as His mercy. God’s punishment isn’t happening right now. All sin was either punished at the cross or it will be punished in hell.

Here’s the Old Testament’s take on it:

In the appendix of Rotherham’s Literal Translation he explains what he means by “AGE-ABIDING”

#6

olam is also a vague term which doesn’t really refer to time.

there is a lot of discussion on both olam and aionios on here. it’s pretty academic, considering the times God says He will not stop being angry, and then He does. again, this is all over the forum.

Romans 9 is not the end of the story…keep going to Romans 11.

there is no eternal punishment. the wages of sin are death…not hell. and God resurrects! death will be destroyed one day. and the only way to beat death is to bring to life.

#7

Death can mean alot of things also. One of those is spiritual death or separation from God. As the scripture states in Daniel all will be resurrected and some will go to everlasting life and others to everlasting contempt. This is the second death. Eternal separation from God’s grace where satan and his angels will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of those in “the lake of fire” going up to heaven after they are purified.

#8

I’ve never extrapolated that from the writings of any Christian Universalist. That’s a sentiment better attributed to Unitarian Unversalists.

It seems to me that Calvinism and Arminianism view the pinnacle of God’s creation with general disgust. It depends on the individual to decide whether that disgust comes from misanthropy or self-loathing.

It seems to me that unless the totality of God’s created souls will someday bow to Him and give Him glory, then His glory cannot be infinite or have infinite worth. If you speak of “worth” then you must speak of whom that worth is of value to? Is God’s glory of value to God? Certainly, even though we tend to think of things as being of value to God in somewhat anthropomorphic terms, so that discussion could wind up similar to discussing angels on the head of a pin. Is God’s glory of worth and value to those who are saved? Absolutely. Absolutely, ultimately, and sublimely. Does God’s glory have value and worth to those who will be either punished/tormented/corrected/annihilated* forever*? None whatsoever. For them, God’s glory becomes an object of scorn and derision, not of worth and value.

#9

Please define God’s glory? Christ in me is the hope of glory?

#10

well said, Eric! and well asked, nimblewill!

as to death meaning many things…in the old testament it is understood as the breath leaving the body…the breath of God coming into the body meant life, the breath departing: death.

David and Solomon, both under inspiration, wrote about the lack of consciousness after death.

Paul, under inspiration, says that death will be destroyed last of all enemies.

John, under inspiration, wrote that death and hades (that is, the grave, NOT hell), will be thrown into the now empty lake of fire (after all the nations have vacated it and been healed by the trees growing along the river of life).

death is onething: oblivion, but God is bigger than death. just as He gave dirt life in us, so He resurrects us from the oblivion of death. death’s wages have been paid, and we will not remain dead. none of us.

and as Eric says, the only people who will glorify God are those redeemed by Him. if those in “hell” glorify Him, then they would be redeemed, too, even out of there. you can’t worship God without God’s Spirit, and you’re not going to remain in any state of punishment if you have His Spirit…and if that’s the case, then no one will be left in there.

otherwise there would exist a corner in the final state of the universe where God is not glorified…i can’t see that being a permanent state.

#11

God’s glory is infinite in value and worth period. Just because people belittle it doesn’t change the fact that it is still of infinite worth. The same goes with humans. You can try to degrade someone but that doesn’t change their value as a human being.

#12

Well, if we’re trinitarians, we believe that God Himself is an ever-active fulfillment of fair-togetherness between Persons, and that all reality depends on this fulfillment, and that God’s glory involves such fulfillment. So valuing persons and the fulfillment of fair-togetherness between persons, even created persons who as persons are made by God in the image of God, is inherently (and I would say very importantly and uniquely) a factor of the truth of trinitarian theism.

But even non-trinitarian Christians sometimes agree (especially if they’re universalists :smiley: ) that humans value God’s infinite glory (insofar as we can, and we can never value it enough) by loving God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, and (which is like unto it) loving our neighbor as ourselves.

I really don’t see that anywhere in the scriptures God regards our valuing His glory as anything other or less than to love God and to love created persons. If we say we love God but do not love our neighbor, we’re… let us say making a mistake about how well we’re loving God. (John puts it rather more strongly in his epistle.) If we try to get around loving our neighbor (maybe our brother but not necessarily our neighbor) by asking “And who is my neighbor?”–well, there’s a famous parable about that in the scriptures, too.

It is because I value the Persons of God and their love and justice for one another most, that I value all persons created by God as well, and seek the fulfillment of fair-togetherness (dikaiosunê, “righteousness”, “justice”) between them. That’s what justice positively is.

Thus Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.” We aren’t offered the inheritance of the sonship (insofar as any mere creature can share that inheritance by God’s grace) on any lesser intention by God for us. I may have to fight, I may even have to fight to the death, but if I am not seeking peace with those whom I have to fight against, even to the death, then I myself am not yet being a son of God.

Insofar as it depends on us, live at peace with one another. Sometimes it doesn’t depend on us, but on our enemies, and so there must be fighting. But God doesn’t give that expectation for us and then void that expectation in Himself!–He doesn’t expect more from us than He Himself is prepared to give! Since any possible peace depends first and foremost on God Himself, the saying must be true for God as well: insofar as it depends on God, God shall seek to be at peace with His enemies.

That’s why any of us are ever saved from our sins by God at all!

But the only way to avoid a conclusion of universal salvation of sinners from sin by God (sooner or later), is to deny that insofar as it depends on God, God shall seek to be at peace with His enemies. Either (per one type of Arminianism) it doesn’t ultimately depend on God; or (per the other type of Arminianism, or per any type of Calvinism distinct from Arminianism) God stops or never starts seeking to be at peace with His enemies even though such peace depends ultimately on God and could be achieved if He chose to keep at it until the peace was accomplished.

Insofar as it depends on God, God shall seek to be at peace with His enemies.
Insofar as it depends on God, God shall not seek to be at peace with His enemies.
Insofar as it depends on God, God shall fail to be at peace with His enemies.

One of those matches up with what God requires and expects of us–except with Godly competency.
The others are less or no better than what God requires and expects of us incompetent creatures.

So, because I do value the omnicompetent and ineffable glory of the Trinity, as the foundation of all reality and the ground of all morality, I would never say I do not value any person who is less than God.

I would be acting against the ground of all reality and of all morality if I did so.

(And that, to put it shortly, would be bad of me. :slight_smile: Or, put a little less shortly, would be un-righteous of me.)

#13

You’re introducing a double standard and an appeal to authority, and neither of those conclusively prove your argument. You introduced the concept of “value and worth”, applying it to God’s glory. Things only have value and worth to those who either use the item as currency, or esteem its beauty or usefulness.

God’s glory, in and of itself, has infinite value to God, in and of Himself. To those observers who could esteem it for its beauty and wonder, it is of varying value and worth, from near-infinite(since we as humans cannot truly comprehend infinity) to completely worthless to those who do not believe or who actively hate God.

Your argument about humans is a non-sequitur. In the world of people, individual people change their value and worth to society constantly; in your theological view, God may love all human souls equally, but ultimately, He assigns different values to human souls by deeming some worthy of salvation and some worthy of infinite punishment.

UR actually presents a better argument for the infinite value of God’s glory and the equal value of humans. If all will be saved eventually, then all souls will esteem God’s glory equally, as they will eventually have the same value parameter applied to them by God. Hell is then no longer merely a wastebin to hold those assigned a different value in Calvinist (or Arminian) thought, but a place of redemptive, restorative punishment and learning. Annihilationism actually presents a better argument in support of your claim than ECT, but it is still lacking in terms of the totality of creation.

#14

Hmmm. I like some of what you said here. However, God’s value and worth doesn’t change. He is a Being who doesn’t change. We are the ones that change. Our perspective changes yes. And all sinners have become worthless apart from Christ. Point well taken here. But in our mystical union with Christ the old self is replaced with the new self as we are covered in the righteousness of Christ. We find our value and worth before God in Christ.

#15

Let’s look at these points separately.

1a. God’s value and worth doesn’t change: In and of itself,* to* Himself, and those who are saved, no it doesn’t.
1b. He is a Being who doesn’t change: Most of us here would scripturally and philosophically stipulate to that.

  1. We are the ones that change. Our perspective changes: Yes, and in those changes of perspective, the value of any aspect of God is subject to change, to humans.

3.We find our value and worth before God in Christ: Here is where the value of people and of God change dramatically in practical terms* to humans.* People will be assigned values of saved/condemned by God, hence an inequality of human worth. In the perspective of the people on different side of that divide, God, and all of His aspects, would necessarily take on different values of worth/estimation. In Paul’s words, “For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

The statement, “God’s glory is infinite in value and worth period”, while agreed upon by those who would call themselves Christian, is in reality an unverifiable assertion to and for people; it is at best, an abstraction, at worst, “foolishness” or a falsehood.

Keep in mind that I am speaking in terms of evangelism/opinion conversion of debating. The things we as believers hold as a foundation and reality of our faith, are only ideals in the discussion of salvation with non-believers.

Likewise the statement about human value cannot necessarily be stipulated by both parties in an ECT/UR debate.

I’ve got to go treat a lady’s yard for fleas right now, but I hope you have a blessed day, Cole. It’s always a good day when we get to live out “as iron sharpens iron” in good debates.

#16

Concerning the opening question, I don’t think it matters which do we value most. The question is, which does God value most, people of His glory/fame? If one weighs the number of times in scripture where God affirms that He values people vs. His concern over His glory, I think His love for people wins hands down. In fact, because of His love for us He set aside all glory, made of Himself nothing, humbled Himself as a servant, lived and died among us all because of His love for us (Phil. 2.6-8). In fact, Paul writes in Phil. 2:1-4:
1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

So to think that God being concerned about His Glory even comes close to His love for people doesn’t make sense to me. To be one in Spirit with the Lord is to humble ourselves and love/value others more than ourselves. If God valued His own glory more than He valued others, us, then He would not be living out the example that Paul sets before us in this passage.

For God so LOVED (not His Glory) but the world! And Jesus IS the Perfect Revelation of the Character, priorities, and values of God. He is Emmanuel, God With Us in the flesh! Hallelujah!

#17

I can’t answer your poll, because you haven’t given the right answer as an option. It’s a false dichotomy. God values His created beings – humans – and so to do so IS to value His glory. He expresses His attributes through human beings. We are a large part of the manifestation of His glory, and it is through His expression of His glory in us that it can be appreciated and perceived.

Each of us is created especially to manifest some aspect of His glory. None of us (save His Son, who is the second person of the Trinity) can manifest His full glory. We are finite, and this is an obvious impossibility. But each of us is specially designed to display some wonderful aspect of our glorious God to the universe at large and to one another. This is yet one more reason that God will not allow a single particle of the amazing work of His very own hands to be lost beyond redemption.

#18

Cindy, you said it superbly:

I think it is tempting to think it sounds more spiritual to say that we value God’s glory above all else but as has been said by many above, God’s glory and ours are inextricably linked. Not because we make it so but because HE made it so by creating us in His image. That was not due to anything we deserve but simply something God just did …FOR HIS GLORY. Making sinners righteous apparently brings Him GLORY! (see John 17) Irenaeus said that, “The glory of God is man fully alive.” Our becoming who He created us to be brings Him glory. Judgment and wrath may be necessary to bring us there but we are told that His goal is to finally reconcile all things to Himself and be all in all.

This point came up in a book review I just did of Calvinist Matt Chandler’s brand new book, “The Explicit Gospel.” He, in the mindset of Piper, says that the glory of His name is God’s highest goal. I agreed 100% but disagreed with Chandler on how that would be accomplished. Chandler’s view of God leaving most of His creation as broken images of Himself perpetrating sin and death forever is hardly a reflection of who He says He is and what He says He will do. But rather it was in His emptying Himself, being obedient to the point of death on a cross, that will cause every knee to bow and every tongue to confess that He is Lord bringing GLORY to the FATHER!

The glory of God and His name IS what we as evangelical universalists are championing for! We do not believe God is honored and glorified by most of His creation hating and rebelling against Him, cycling death and sin forever (the very things He said He hates and came to conquer!) Even Napoleon knew that this kind of conquering was human and carnal and could not be compared to the conquering love of Christ over the hearts of men. You can read his testimony on a thread here: evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=2419&p=31877&hilit=napoleon#p31877

It’s a very subtle tact of the Enemy to get us to believe that we are the elite ones protecting God’s glory/holiness in some way. It can invoke within others a sense of guilt and a feeling that we laypeople just can’t really comprehend God’s nature through the simple terms God gives us as Father, a Mother, a Good Shepherd, and a Righteous Judge (even though we are told we must come as a little child). Instead we are made to think we need the religious leaders to show us how God is.

Jesus said that the whole law was summed up in “love your neighbor as yourself”. Everyone loving each other’s neighbor (because God first loved us, His neighbor, on the cross) is apparently God’s highest glory as He says in Lev 19: “Be holy as I am holy…love your neighbor as yourself”.

#19

Excellent replies everyone! (Hey, Alex, where’s that “Like” button? :sunglasses: )

Thanks,
Sonia

#20

While I am now a Universalist, I still think God’s glory is greater than man’s. I believe God has an extrinsic glory that He shares with His creatures. We are after all being transformed into the image and likeness of Christ. But there is also an intrinsic Glory that God alone has. He doesn’t share this glory with anyone. He alone is God. He always will only be God. There are ways I’m to be like God and ways I’m not to be like God. There is a Creator creature distinction. God’s glory is greater and I treasure it above all else. Above all created things.